Well, it so happened that I was discussing the issues I have with the current envoy report process, and I was directed to look at the Aetolia system for envoys - and I was blown away!

Our current system works something like a report every month with say, 24 slots each to be filled with one suggestion (I'm not sure of the exact number at the moment). Each class envoy gets two suggestions a month, and then they are collated and 3/4s chosen to go on the actual report to the admin. My dislike for this system is that it encourages competition rather than cooperation as envoys jostle to have their own upgrades (and other class downgrades) selected for the limited spaces on each report. There's also the fact that with so few spaces - two only from each class a month, smaller issues and changes which really should be fixed are passed over continuously in favour of a single combat critical issue or two. There's also very little likelihood a class envoy will waste their one or two spaces with a balancing fix that might negatively impact on their skills.

Instead, I think a prioritized list should be submitted from each envoy. If the coders have limited space, they might only focus on the top priorities at first, but at least they will see the other suggestions, and they won't be ignored. It also allows general and trade skills to be looked at, and other issues that might need to be addressed.

However, looking at the Aetolia system, there is just so many good points to it that I can't suggest anything better! I'd still hope that the envoys discuss ideas and debate balance between themselves before each report, provide review and so on, but the fact every report in Aetolia is visible and there are explanations for what is changed and not changed is awesome!

From their helpfiles:


So apparently any player, once the reports are submitted, can then see exactly what each envoy is saying and read their reasoning. And if there is admin feedback, I'm assuming that is visible too.

I know it means slightly more work from the coders, and potentially slightly less frequent envoy cycles, but it seems to encourage a much higher quality system, and MUCH more accountability on the part of the envoys. It also puts the admin in a much better position if changes go through that are widely unpopular - they can point to exactly what the envoys suggested.

Though I'm sure I'll see many cons to this soon enough... *agrees completely*

Not bad.

I like the REPORT system, looks nice. However, I also still like the 24 slot system.

I'd love to see this sort of system, although it would require a large amount more admin involvement, and ones who were a lot more familiar with the way the abilties actually work in day-to-day Lusternia, which is something that seems to be lacking at times. It would also have the downside that the suggestions would not necessarily be dealt with on a regular basis, due to the increased workload it would put on the admin.

For those of you who don't now the system, the report basically has four sections

Firstly, at the top there's something that shows the name of the report, who submitted it, what state it's at (i.e. being processed, approved, rejected), and so on.

Secondly, the problem that the report is addressing.

Thirdly, any number of possible solutions.

And last but not least, a decision section which shows what has been decided by the admin out of the possible solutions.

Sometimes I think the envoy reports should have been admin decided in the first place...

There seems to be lots of biasm involved when dealing about new changes and stuff.

Imperian has this system too. In both games, reports are handled by classleads (as the help file probably says) - which are guild appointed in Imperian and I believe Admin appointed in Aetolia. The thing is, it lets everybody see what is and isn't suggested. The system also allows for comments on reports from other classleads, too - which sufficiently allows arguments for or against various things. Comments do not, however, make or break the process of getting a new skill or a changed skill - the Administration uses their better judgment in the end.

The problem with this system is that it is SLOW. You know how in all the other IRE games everyone complains about class balance and problems with specific skills more than they do here? That's because their classleads only happen every 1-2 RL years. Here, though, we get to submit stuff for changes once a month (sometimes more) and we can fix things that are seriously overpowered or have major issues, and upgrade things that are seriously underpowered on our own so that we can work towards balance on a consistent basis rather than having to wait for the admin to do their classleads every once in a blue moon. It also takes a LONG time for them to get through the classleads since they go skill by skill.

Anyway, if you want to know what an envoy is submitting, you can just ask them.

As envoys can tell you, there is admin oversight and not all envoy recommendations go through. Anyway, I rather like the vetting process whereby envoys mutually discuss and agree on what to recommend before its sent through. There's also nothing stopping them from posting on the forums what their report is to let everyone know their suggestions if that's an issue.

Anyway, unless there is some overwhelming flaw in the envoy process (which I don't think there is), I would rather we focus on other coding projects (like monks).

I think a system with that kind of consistency but with the open factor (displaying what is suggested, who refutes what, etc) would be a rather good change to the system. In my opinion, people are much less likely to be biased little twits or display that they have no clue what they are talking about if the rest of the public will drag them down for it. Granted, Lusternia does not look like a troll-happy community and thus I doubt it would work as well as it did for Impy (reports immediately had a rather powerful effect on the way people thought about balance - the idiots who before had e-mailed in dumb changes begging for upgrades or nerfs were now forced to make an actual intelligent report. Of course, there are exceptions to this observation - but I don't want to get in to that).

Really, I'd just like to see what all is going on. Not everything with balance/new content has to be SOOPER SEKRIT PLANZ. Would it kill to let people know what is happening to their class so they can help suggest something to their Envoys or at least say 'wait a minute, change X would be a really bad idea because it would probably destroy the WORLD AS WE KNOW IT'.. of course, that's an exaggerated and silly example, but I think it conveys my point.

In the Geomancers at least we have a project with the current two suggestions and then the rest of the pending suggestions. Anyone can modify the project. Of course, it's up to the envoy to keep it up to date with what is currently on the table and what probably won't be suggested (ours very much isn't) but it's not a bad idea, necessarily.

While I think the liaison system is a great idea in principle, I think it has the downside that it would greatly increase the workload for the Admins, ergo making things take many times longer than they do at present. I think a better system would probably be a prioritised list, as you said, possibly with the ability to flag suggestions as being in a certain category, e.g, RP, Combat imbalance, etc.

I think the general format could be incorporated to how we handle the envoy wiki--don't just suggest changes, say what problem you're trying to address and provide a short list of possible alternatives. That system, though, looks more limiting than anything.

i don't think we need to rabbit on about rediculous crap like 'openness and accountability'. This isn't Enron, and it's not parliament. Envoys are not politicians and we don't go to stripclubs (ok so we do) or get involved in scandals with interns (would if I could).

No need for openness and accountability, the system works fine. Who needs to be accountable to who in the first place? last I checked Estarra & Roark are the only people accountable for lusternia at the end of the day, us envoys are cogs in the machine.

edit: Some content removed cause i'm in a bad mood and lets face it, i don't say nice things at times

in imperian the clerics had a skill i think it was called judgement, well it worked in a way were after the first 2 messages only way to stop it was to leave the room it took literal years to fix this..

Fixed before classlead comment system was put in, irrelevant comment.

That same thing existed on Achaea. If you actually read the message, you'd see the mace doing its own thing at that point. It wasn't a bug.

i didn't say it was a bug.. as if it was a bug, and not a change there would be no point in posting in in reference to a class lead.. and i ment fix as in make it fair with elimination.

I still don't follow the logic of you pointing that out on a forum for Lusternia - if it was a jab at the classlead system in place there, it wasn't really a valid one.

And now it's daegger eliminate that's bugged!

Can't say I'd mind being able to see what the envoys are posting and vetoing. If nothing else, because I'm always curious.