yea and some paladins say Saccraments doesnt completly own Necromancy

Invest demon w/shackles....

Then the monk doesn't die. Just gets annoyed.

As awesome as the Divine are at running Lusti and making awesome things for the game to be more enjoyable, I think they really messed up on monk design. It's really dumb.

Every time you hit "Add Reply", Jesus throttles a kitten. Seriously.

The best ex-Nihilist around went mugwump

i know you are but what am i?

I think part of this is that stun is all screwed up at the moment, isn't it? Especially since you're a faeling.

The stun is silly, yes. Though, I think they need to slow monk speed a bit and accomdate the wound/damage formula around that. Also, Monks need the ability to hinder somehow. It's something they currently fail at. Unless the Shofangi Hook whores, but that is still rather easy to just get away from.

EDIT: @Krin - Sacraments beats Necromancy for Guardians, I think Necromancy is better for Warriors than Sacraments. Just imo.

TH >whole necro skill set

but ah, having fought lots of monks winning some losing other they hit really fast and its really hard to cure the wounds and sip at the same time....
having to trade off between the two is kinda sucky because as it is now i go to heal my head missing a round of healing that he hits me for 2k in the foot? or something i think it needs to be thought out a little more than it is now.

Trueheal does not beat the entire Necromancy set. Trueheal requires 10p to use. Oftentimes, Celestines do not have this. If the Paladin used any semblance of an assault, crush, etc.. They also will not have it. Trueheal is annoying yes, but it definitely does not beat the entire Necromancy skill set.

Hinder the monk. Web enchant. If you're a Pureblade, go for Tendon. Monks hit fast, which may be some of the problems people have with them. However, they cannot hinder you. So you can really just walk away if you can cure them.

mm being grappled isn't a form of hinderence?

And with that statement you show that you know absolutely nothing about warriors. Which paladin never uses a power attack to launch an offensive to save up for that 10p trueheal that also never help shim kill his opponent? If you're crushing, lunging, sweeping, or assaulting, you aren't truehealing. And if you aren't doing those, you aren't doing much of anything effectively. Having played both specs as a warrior and some as a guardian, I can tell you that Sacraments is far better for Celestines than it is for Paladins, and Necromancy compliments a warrior more than Sacraments, which is why PALADINS say it is INFERIOR to NECROMANCY when compared to UR'GUARD. Noone is debating that it is a great defensive skill, which goes great with a PASSIVE OFFENSE like an ANGEL and several abilities that don't use power, like TAROT. Let me know if I'm going too fast for you here.

You also need trans combat and a decent system to fight someone, just like magic users have said "You need trans magic" to fight them. Hooray.

Malicia, Catarin, Nico.

Not that they never use power, but they sometimes don't use power attacks (or only use 1-2) in order to save power if something goes wrong in group combat. Watched it happen more than once in the most recent revolt, including using TH to get off of pinleg, regen 1 power, move-and-sanc.

You're right that no Paladin ALWAYS saves power for Trueheal, but depending on the situation, Paladins do save power to have the option.

hey Desitrus, bite me? i'm not to keen on what i've done to piss you off but stop with the gnawing personal attacks?

also transing discipline makes your power come back rather fast. and i don't know i've only had the warrior skillset sence beta i guess i wouldn't know anything about it...

Getting aggressive in a response asking someone to back off probably won't help you.

This is also Desitrus' standard "You don't know what you're talking about because you don't fight" reaction, so try to take it in stride. Sometimes this attitude is correct, sometimes it's a cover for faulty knowledge (it's not like any single person knows everything about Lusternia's combat). If it keeps up and bothers you, you can speak to a moderator about it-- otherwise, smile and move on.

I'm not trying to intentionally get on your case, and I'll try to explain this in a less.. hostile way than Desitrus.

First, Trans Discipline is about two seconds scratched off the normal time recover 1p. It's not fast, and Warrior offense (assuming crushes/lunges/assaults/sweeps are being used) will outpace it. It helps, but.. It's still a long time to recover up to 10p if the Paladin is going offensive on you.

And having the warrior skillset since beta does not automatically mean you know everything there is about it.

@Xenthos: That is true, but in all the logs and personal fights I've seen.. They don't do that 1 vs 1.. only one the premise that they might get zerged do they Trueheal. But if they do Trueheal, they are essentially sacrificing their offense.. which means they're not really trying to fight in the first place.

You can actually find logs on the forums of Nico using it to get out of saplock. As I said, it depends on the situation. By no means do Paladins always save power just in case, but if they think that it's necessary, they can easily slow down their initial offence a tad in order for more of a long-term one (use power attacks when you reach full, means that you're keeping up the increase over time and never wasting a full prompt, but you don't have the initial burst to try for an early put-down).

It's simply a different tactic, and isn't one that can be completely discarded as it HAS been used (though less so with the sap nerfs).

Agreed. I've seen the log, much to the anger of Druid's. The main point stands that Trueheal is not omgwtfnerf as Krin makes it out to be. It definitely doesn't beat the entire Necromancy skill set either. Trueheal just equates to a draw whether a Celestine OR a Paladin uses it. It's a get-out-of-jail-free card.. or get-out-of-jail-for-10p card.. whatever. Point stands. I'll stop getting off-topic now. BACK TO THE MONKS.

I'll let you figure it out.

I'll agree with this, what with Trueheal's various downward nudges and the fact that a few things do go through it. It's got its own downsides, and does require a sacrifice of some offence to use well-- and Necromancy certainly isn't entirely useless (though Ghost really needs to be un-nerfed. And not go through archways! Silly Necromancers being the only ones who can safely leave EthGlom/EthSeren 100% of the time without purchase of a 2000 credit artifact).

Bah, you are gonna make me look bad, TH != or > Necromancy as a skillset.

Necromancy has lich, ghost, putrefy and raisedead. All of which except for ghost now are much greater than trueheal when combined.

TH is a nice skill, but please please please don't say it is better than a whole skillset. It makes your arguments appear misinformed.

Now saying Sacraments is > or Glamours is way > than Necromancy for A WARRIOR is a much better way to get your feelings out without ending up with a whole "you don't know what you are talking about" discussion.

Tahtetso is a great skillset, it needs some tweaks. Shofangi needs some tweaks, and that whole karma thing is in Harmony, so Tahtetso specialists can do it too. I don't like the vibes in tahtetso as much as I like the way shofangi has great skills without any wierd vibe pre-requisites.

@Rika, you are being a little extreme. Scramble is an awesome skill, but if you just apply health to your head one time after a string of attacks you will never EVER end up with scrambled (which honestly I think needs to be upgraded, as in does not require a certain amount of wounds or whatever it is that it is causing it to rarely if ever hit against someone who can cure)

The kneecap skill in Shofangi is beautiful, combined with the lower paralysis one and the hook attacks. So all in all I think both Tahtetso and Shofangi are pretty good. But just like any skillset, all will need minor adjustments here and there. And until they really release Mag and Glom monks, I don't think they will have a giant summit to balance them all against all other skillsets (and I mean beefing up or nerfing too, depending on what needs to be done)

Let all the org monks get released first, them pit them monk against monk for a bit, this will let them sort out things that are considered UP or OP between the monk specs. THEN, try beating the piss out of them with nerf sticks. But let them get on their feet for a bit first. Hell we already have people whining about Mag monks who are not even released yet.... -sigh-

Just let people get their monks out, then work on them a bit, before everyone whines to their envoys or here about how horrible they are. Like many have said, web and prone is horrible to a monk, and of course they don't wear plate so they are squishy.