You are correct.

However, we are forced to fight it in a raid when they camp out in it or otherwise. Retardation shouldn't exist in Lusternia, plain and simple.

Even sap requires preparation and maintenance.



Here's the thing--every envoy except three (and not the three you would expect) agrees that choke needs a major downshift.

Most envoys disagree on why and how. When you disagree on the why, it's really hard to come to a consensus on the how.

Almost every choke nerf is vetoed. To get anything through, all the envoys need to agree on the why and how.

Thus, choke remains imbalanced.

Well changing choke to single aeon like every other class out there would be so easy but then this faces opposition like everything else out there

How's this for reframing the debate:

What if every org got a major room effect skill that substantially changed the nature of combat in the room, and none of them could be cast on top of each other? Glomdoring has roomwide aeon. What if one org got roomwide bedevil, one org got triple recovery time on all cures (health vials, herbs, purgatives, etc.), one org got roomwide cyclical anorexia (like scarab), or anything else of that nature?

Or allow people to forcibly replace one with another. A three person coven for Moon/Night, or a 10p feat for Sacraments/Necromancy, that negates the previous major room effect with the one for the casting org. If Serenwilde would rather take its chances with anorexia than choke, the option is there.

The argument (a flawed argument, but hey) is that wiccans can't fight without something that seriously hinders curing. An affliction class should be able to operate under any of the four situations above. The only stipulation I could think to add to that is that Serenwilde shouldn't get the triple recovery time effect--both choke and that would be raid breakers, and it wouldn't be fair for people to have to choose between effects that'll decimate groups in front of a Supernal/Demon Lord/Avatar.

That way, everyone gets nifty new toys, every org (not every individual) has a tool to work against the one person raid gimping strategy, the solution isn't purely anti-choke, and the only people left crying are non-Glom warriors.

How so that only non Glom warriors will cry? The resulting idea of yours will have the skills placed in Moon, Sacraments and Necromancy which warriors of the other Orgs can access. Though can you imagine trying to balance this? Might as well have a pistol duel at dawn and make it clean.

The problem doesn't really solve what a Bonecrusher with Tracking would experience in choke. They're still gimped and getting raped by fae.

And, really, there's nothing "balanced" about choke. What we have on the table are three new ways to completely ruin standard methods of fighting. You have to fight differently to fight in choke--it's not like anything else anywhere in all of IRE. It ruins standard combat. It's also here to stay. This is just sharing the love. They really don't have to be balanced against each other. They just need to be accessible to all archetypes...which choke isn't, and I've pretty well accepted that it never will be.

I just read part of Elryn's first post and wanted to comment on it.

Aeon is 1-1.1 seconds. Not 2. Sap is .5 seconds. No 2 second choke plz.

If you give every Guild/city/commune a roomwide skill as effective as choke...I forsee many, MANY angry posts.

With good reason.

Well that's his point. From his view, Choke is imbalanced for group combat supposedly and only available to Glomdoring. Since no other such group affecting ability exist for other orgs and Choke entirely destroy combat by forcing people to actually learn and adapt to it, let's ruin combat more by creating overpowered abilities for every org to use.

He probably just made the post in a jest but his point is that Choke needs to be removed entirely and replaced with something else.

My point is you people read too much into his posts.

While it is true that people read too much into my posts, the suggestion was serious.

I know, which is why I suggested increasing it to 2 seconds if the 'one command per second' effect was removed, as compensation. I'm aware it makes curing and fighting in choke possible again - I'd be happy reducing the powercost to 8 or 6 as well if it's going to please the vetoers - but it doesn't make it useless. A two second delay before writhing/waking/whatever is still pretty helpful for stacking afflictions, its just not as bloody ridiculously simple as it is at the moment.

Unfortunately, while Xavius' post is an awesome thought experiment for demonstrating the problem here, and showing how terrible it would be, I don't think it's a good solution in practice.

pre-emptive veto on all suggestions to do with changing aeon from how it is now. It's fine now, choke could use work but aeon, leave it

I think you can concede that aeon is sufficiently not-overpowered in group combat that a 3-5 person skill that prevented it and cured it in one room only wouldn't make a major impact, right? If that concession is necessary to get the same thing with choke, it'd be worth it. We don't lose much.

yeah Seren needs a way to be able to raid glom effectivley, at the moment it's not really fair. Seren should be trouncing them and they would be if it weren't for choke being so damn op for protecting rooms

We'd still be losing to Glomdoring right now due to their fighters at the moment, actually, but yes, choke is a particular problem.

And as some of the more forward-thinking Celestians and Magnagorans are noticing, it'll be crippling them if they ever have to fight in choke, too.

Glom is too much of celest's little bitch to really pose a problem, mag on the other hand wouldn't really want to fight wih glom, i love glom too much it'd just break my heart and i'd have to go punch my cat...and I like my cat

While I'm not sure how much I care for the examples you presented, I do rather like this idea. If nothing else, it'd be quite entertaining.

Anyway, I've said it for ages; if you remove Choke from Night (which I wouldn't entirely object to), you've got to give us something of similar usefulness to replace it. However, giving us Aeon would make us essentially a carbon copy of moondancers with succumb instead of lash and more offensive fae, and carbon copy classes are a Bad Thing.



lol, wut?

try this. Abjure quickening. Sleep sleep sleep. make sure you ahve that 10 power def already set up that lets your demon throw out 2 afflictions at once for like 3 turns or so? Fighting in choke is all about getting the first attack. So throwing in a nice shackles or some such with your demon would be good.

I wish I had choke and a passive mana draining affliction

I'd even settle for the passive mana draining affliction