Making Raiding Impossible

by Furien

Back to Common Grounds.

Daganev2007-10-11 00:04:46
QUOTE(Hazar @ Oct 10 2007, 04:33 PM) 448475
The problem isn't that killing guards needs to be a staple of conflict - it's that between the new bard guards and guard-killing be harder, village raiding is now ludicrously difficult.

The problem with nexus worlds is that you have to wait for them, and sometimes you just want to log in and fight something without having to go to the arena.

The problem with planar conflicts is that there's no point to astral conflict, ethereal planes are fortresses, and it's very difficult to raid any of the city's planes.

I understand all the concerns, and I'll see if I can find a good way to articulate a way to have conflict without burnout. The problem is...for there to be competition, you need to be ahead somehow.


This reminds me of something that was said a long time ago.

the New areas that the Admin work on, should be areas expanding the size of the various elemental, ethereal, and cosmic planes. Creating "Planar villages" that can be fought over differently than basin villages. (i.e. no influencing)

edit: I just want to say, that I am very happy that the admin worked on the Undervault before following the idea to make Planar villages. However, I think maybe now would be a good time to work on those next.
Daganev2007-10-11 00:05:50
QUOTE(Krellan @ Oct 10 2007, 04:49 PM) 448480
increase village revolting frequency. It's neutral conflict that I feel most people tend to enjoy. Currently it's once a week. Sometimes an non peak sometimes at peak. So people are going to be missing it and getting involved in conflict less than once a week.


Uggg. don't change the village revolts. It is the first time in a few years that people havn't been complaining about them in one way or another! tongue.gif
Unknown2007-10-11 00:11:50
Well, let's take a look at the existing conflict structures.

Conflict Quests

Pros: Used to be a way to allow an in-story game to affect another org. These still exist for the bragging rights!

Cons: Too many people kept doing the quests constantly, thus causing their nerf.

Suggestions: The players should make incentives for doing the quests--make it so to get a very high city rank you have to do the quest. Alternately, re-code the quest mechanic so the quest can only be done by a player who has registered, bought credits, and is over level 40 or so, and the quest will only work once per player, and only reset once a week. That gives the quests a potential but limits it from becoming a grief-fest.

Wild Nodes:

Pros: Basically CTF with meaning. Astral is dangerous and it's fun for those who play.

Cons: Supposedly Wild Nodes is to prevent some "disaster" from happening, but that never seems to work. Serenwilde from what I've seen has sometimes had 0 points. Story-wise there's little consequence for not participating. The regular schedule is unlike villages so numerous orgs can have a way to participate. Communes are at a disadvantage.

Suggestions: Randomize the Wild Nodes time. Have some disaster occur to the nexus of some org that wishes to "wait it out". Create a similar event that favors the ethereal, the home turf of the communes.

Village Influencing:

Pros: Benefits politically. Sometimes peaced so it's not a PK fest. Tends to be a focalpoint of conflict.

Cons: So far, no way for the admin to shut the damn thing off during events. Peer pressure seems to force as many people to be involved in the conflict. Sometimes these last a LONG time (8-12 hours).

Suggestions: None at the moment.

Nexus Conflicts

Pros: Benefits and Drawbacks for battles. Supposedly better than the conflict quests, since they only affect "additions" and not "expected powers". Lots of tactical things to do. Mini-weakenings help.

Cons: Supposedly buggy. Some people don't see it as fun.

Suggestions: None at the moment.

Arena Games

Pros: No XP loss. Bragging rights. Fun arena.

Cons: Some people are bored with this since they think it "doesn't count" or it "doesn't hurt the org directly" or "you need to make them pray".

Suggestions: Admin started games for special rewards? Once every few months have an arena game to battle for a village instead of the regular battle.



Xenthos2007-10-11 00:12:03
QUOTE(Morgfyre @ Oct 10 2007, 07:19 PM) 448469
Feel free to toss out your own ideas for how to improve conflict in Lusternia. I would love to see some great new ideas that we can implement.

An idea we submitted ages upon ages ago ("we" being Glomdoring and Serenwilde):
QUOTE(EventsPost)
The Sylvan Hunting Grounds

This idea has grown from the desire for low-level conflict-- that is, conflict which those who desire to participate in may, but in which nobody feels FORCED or OBLIGATED into doing by roleplay. Defending your organization's territory is an obligation, and thus does not fit the low-level category.

This will be discussing the Commune version of this area, though there should be one for Cities as well. The idea is NOT to stop all other conflict altogether, but to provide an outlet for aggressive desires and fun between those who have a taste for it in a place where it's not only acceptable but *encouraged* by roleplay-- a fun that doesn't aggravate or frustrate those that do not find it to be interesting at all.

The Commune version could be something like a primal Sylvan hunting ground upon Ethereal. While this place would have strong creatures (which will be discussed later), the main inhabitant would be one of the Dream Aspects of Wolf. An aspect of the Hunt, attuned to blood and desiring to see conflict and fight within that little realm. There would be an implication that there are other Sylvan "areas" where other Aspects of the Spirits reside, forests that are offshoots of Faethorn, but not directly controlled by Queen Maeve. This one especially would be a primal Forest, where those who do not have a bond to the Forests would find the forest rising against them (LiveForest effects against anybody who isn't in a Commune. The City equivalent would have Cosmic Ripple effects against anybody who isn't a member of a city and doesn't have a bond to the protection of a City Nexus). There would be an entrance in Ethereal Serenwilde and an entrance in Ethereal Glomdoring, but only a member of that organization could use that entrance-- as a member of the Glomdoring, I could not use the path into Ethereal Serenwilde.

This Aspect would have a small "arena" around itself, it at the center, a four-room diamond-shaped ring encircling, and an outer ring of another five rings for nine rooms total. No other NPCs would enter this ring. The Aspect would ask for Challengers, and should someone from either Commune be willing to bear this burden, a Howl would rise up in both Communes signifying that the Challenge has been offered! (You probably shouldn't hear this with loyalsays off). After the Challenge has been offered, the other organization has 10 minutes to pull together a force and accept it by entering the "arena". If they do not accept, after ten minutes are up a force of NPC wolves will attack instead, VERY difficult to defeat, perhaps two or three waves instead of all at once.

If you leave the nine-room arena while a challenge is in effect, you CANNOT get back in. You cannot teleport in after dying, you cannot tesseract, you cannot walk in. In fact, the exits in and out should close so that there is no way to walk out, either. You win, or you die. Should you win, however, you will gain control over a source of Power-- the Aspect itself will allow you to link, becoming loyal to your organization for 30 minutes, or until the next Challenge is offered, whichever comes first. While loyal, you could LINK to the aspect, drawing power for your own personal reserves. The Aspect would regenerate ten power every five minutes for a total of fifty power an hour, up to a maximum capacity of 1000 power (total amount could be subject to change, depending on how well this goes over and how much it is used-- it should be enough to supply those who fight for control of it). It would likely *never* fill up completely-- a source of power like that would be used quite constantly, and quite a bit of power would be expended to secure it for drawing, so it wouldn't really add a huge influx of power to the game, but it would be something that combatants would have some fun getting to use! The reason for this is that Wolf is dormant, slumbering. His Aspect would essentially be offering a small bit of the power of the Spirit to those who have proved worthy, power that replenishes over time.

Further, the Aspect would embody the Hunt in the realm-- you would be able to perform tasks for it showing your hunting ability (a way for an Honours Quest here, IF one is desired... searching for creatures that live in trees, or behind hidden passages through the undergrowth, or so on-- if an honours quest isn't desired, it could just non-Honours quests for performing feats of hunting). It would express its view of those who enter not only as being Hunters, but as being Prey as well-- there is no safety within this Realm. Even if you are the most pacifistic person within the Basin, the Aspect will look on with pleasure as you are killed. This is not a soft or easy place, and there would be no Laws regarding conduct within (except for things like "do not steal" which are more OOC considerations anyways). If you enter, expect that you will be Prey. The Commune Leaders would be expected to understand and recognize this.

This place would have no intrinsic bond to either Commune. There would be NO fae there, nothing that makes any commune feel that they *have to defend* it or *have to claim it*. It's an independant area, ruled over by the Wolf Aspect. Creatures within it would basically be strong, old creatures that aren't seen elsewhere. A few ideas presented so far are things such as sabre-tooth wolves, or rainbow serpents (these were presented as the living version of kundalini, the Serpent spell of lowmagic: a midnight black flying snake, that leaves rainbow afterimages in the air behind it as it moves).

This idea was crafted by Nejii, Anarias, and myself, and has been presented to Xavius, Hiriako, Shayle, and Nirrti for review. Each and every one has agreed that the idea is interesting and the need for low-scale conflict is *necessary*. Though the implementation was questioned by Xavius (he was wondering if another implementation might be more effective for encouraging combatants to come play without others feeling the obligation) the rest have all supported it. If it goes well, there could be other low-scale conflict areas added for lower-level people-- ways for people who want to fight to fight, without others being dragged into it who have no desire for such.

I think reasonings are explained within. There needs to be conflict that isn't tied to an organization, so there isn't a "OH MY GOSH, WE NEED TO DO THIS!," but which allows people to get some conflict when they desire it without having to run through a million stunstatueown guard-traps. This may not be the best or easiest idea to implement, but SOMETHING along these lines would be nice-- which inherently requires conflict to do, is not necessary to do, and does not hurt anyone to do (and does not give massive org bonuses). It's reward is also less important with the easier access to Astral for the Communes now, but it was more worthwhile then.
Lysandus2007-10-11 00:12:28
other than decrease duration of waiting villages to revolt (which I agree), I also suggest the old sea conflict be returned. It's been a while now since anyone cared about these things and they pretty much won't do much harm now except maybe prevent sands/spectres from being harvested.

aetherbattles aren't happening because it always happens when people aren't around and only a handful are and don't expect the handful to have transed aethercrafting and their specialty.
Yrael2007-10-11 00:13:35
QUOTE(Malicia @ Oct 11 2007, 08:44 AM) 448452
Everything you said there is pretty much how I feel. I've heard the same complaints voiced by others.


She speaks! And I assume she was unbanned, with that post count! Hooray.

It could up city raids if guards and statues/totems were changed. Only a certain amount of totems per commune, statues per city. Weaken guards (One damage type, a bit slower) and make them track from wherever they are to any "help, help!" regardless where they are in org territory, then return. Communes already deal with a lesser amount of totems due to lack of people to bond them, but hey, they have flow, so it doesn't matter all that much. At least that way people (Who aren't me, and what I do doesn't count anyway. Swarms of people turn up in seconds.) are likely to group up and go for a walk. The Nexus should be inviolate, but not the rest of the city.

Go raid Nil? One archdemon corpse? 5 power to your nexus and five from mine. Same for the fae. We've all got so much power that it doesn't really matter anymore. More village revolts, and longer ones - remember when deep vein thrombosis was a real and frightening risk? Not to mention a burst bladder because if I move that bastard will win? Old conflict quests were terrible, mostly because of the amount of time we (I don't know how much the rest lost.) had to put in to, say, raise Ladantine. Every second a supernal/demon lord/avatar is dead? Lose some power from the Nexus. Make the necromentate dying loose some serious problems for the older players, but leave newbies alone. Damage that only affects those over level 50.

(And let's bring on the first Vernal gods. They'll be slapped with all sorts of restrictions, but who cares! I'll volunteer. *cough*. That'd knock out the bulk of the power in all nexii.)

*shrug*. Serenwilde and Celest may now pounce and point out why I'm a horrible person, as per usual.
Xenthos2007-10-11 00:14:56
QUOTE(Yrael @ Oct 10 2007, 08:13 PM) 448493
It could up city raids if guards and statues/totems were changed. Only a certain amount of totems per commune, statues per city.

Totems are already limited. Statues aren't, though.
Unknown2007-10-11 00:21:55
If people really wanted to raid cities and villages, what if once every week (random time), the guards all have to "go to sleep" or "regenerate" for a few hours. That would allow a sanctioned time when a raid would be possible. You could keep guards in the Newbie-safe areas. There would be a five-minute warning or something like that.
Yrael2007-10-11 00:23:08
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Oct 11 2007, 10:14 AM) 448495
Totems are already limited. Statues aren't, though.


QUOTE(Yrael @ Oct 11 2007, 10:13 AM) 448493
She speaks! And I assume she was unbanned, with that post count! Hooray.

It could up city raids if guards and statues/totems were changed. Only a certain amount of totems per commune, statues per city. Weaken guards (One damage type, a bit slower) and make them track from wherever they are to any "help, help!" regardless where they are in org territory, then return. Communes already deal with a lesser amount of totems due to lack of people to bond them, but hey, they have flow, so it doesn't matter all that much. At least that way people (Who aren't me, and what I do doesn't count anyway. Swarms of people turn up in seconds.) are likely to group up and go for a walk. The Nexus should be inviolate, but not the rest of the city.
Furien2007-10-11 00:23:32
Don't think giving people a way to fight over power -gain- is terribly worthwhile. Villages are, yes, but their main importance lies in the comms they produce.

People can really care less about Wildnodes- it's always Celest or Mag (whoever can set up the most passive effects/trample the most people/lord knows what else), and if one side has a big enough of a lead everyone just backs away and doesn't bother.

Constructs were meant to be a big drain on power, if I remember, but instead they got changed to a very small cost which eventually turned into a bonus. :/
Xenthos2007-10-11 00:26:36
QUOTE(Furien @ Oct 10 2007, 08:23 PM) 448499
Don't think giving people a way to fight over power -gain- is terribly worthwhile. Villages are, yes, but their main importance lies in the comms they produce.

People can really care less about Wildnodes- it's always Celest or Mag (whoever can set up the most passive effects/trample the most people/lord knows what else), and if one side has a big enough of a lead everyone just backs away and doesn't bother.

Constructs were meant to be a big drain on power, if I remember, but instead they got changed to a very small cost which eventually turned into a bonus. :/

It's not organizational power gain, but personal. People often fight over the nodes at the cities when they're released-- for coning, for personal power, for whatever, and that's within Avechna's domain. This wouldn't be.
Furien2007-10-11 00:31:23
Are you really fighting to get power for yourself (when you've got 2 million waiting at home, albeit restricted by useless power rules), or are you just looking for a fight in that situation? In my experience, it's typically the latter. :/
Xenthos2007-10-11 00:34:08
QUOTE(Furien @ Oct 10 2007, 08:31 PM) 448502
Are you really fighting to get power for yourself (when you've got 2 million waiting at home, albeit restricted by useless power rules), or are you just looking for a fight in that situation? In my experience, it's typically the latter. :/

And the power to satisfy that fight without dealing with those power rules, yep. Reason to fight, people who go there expect a fight, conflict that is separated from the organizations... sounds like it's exactly what's been asked for!
Unknown2007-10-11 00:41:15
Constructs should probably have less of a gold-cost and more of a power-drain. Though how much of a power-drain would be needed to force organizations to actually think before placing guards/powers...meh.
Lysandus2007-10-11 00:50:46
Maybe.... -just- maybe, what if we could build the same spires Shellma used drain nexus, except in a lesser degree? That could lead a new range of conflict... dunno, just throwing ideas here
Xinael2007-10-11 01:27:34
QUOTE(daganev @ Oct 11 2007, 01:05 AM) 448488
Uggg. don't change the village revolts. It is the first time in a few years that people havn't been complaining about them in one way or another! tongue.gif

The post you're replying to is a complaint about villages. People will never stop.

QUOTE(Phred @ Oct 11 2007, 01:11 AM) 448489
re-code the quest mechanic so the quest can only be done by a player who has registered, bought credits, and is over level 40 or so, and the quest will only work once per player, and only reset once a week.

This is a slippery slope and definitely should not make it in.

QUOTE(Phred @ Oct 11 2007, 01:11 AM) 448489
Have some disaster occur to the nexus of some org that wishes to "wait it out".

Exactly the sort of stick that Morgfyre said they didn't want. Shoehorning people into conflict whether they want it or not is a bad idea. Why force people into conflict if they don't want to, anyway?

QUOTE(Phred @ Oct 11 2007, 01:11 AM) 448489
Peer pressure seems to force as many people to be involved in the conflict.

This used to be a lot more common, I think - the feeling that if you weren't taking part in whatever pointless conflict was going on this month, you're not as valued a member of the city/commune.
Hazar2007-10-11 01:43:37
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Oct 10 2007, 07:12 PM) 448490
An idea we submitted ages upon ages ago ("we" being Glomdoring and Serenwilde):



I had mixed feelings about this idea the first time I saw it, but let me just throw in one bit: I dislike the part that says fae shouldn't be there. Fae aren't necessarily something we need to fight over - do we fight over the kelpies or the candy fae? No. Fae are a fascinating part of the commune story and shouldn't be left out because some people's roleplay overreaches.

QUOTE(Phred @ Oct 10 2007, 07:21 PM) 448497
If people really wanted to raid cities and villages, what if once every week (random time), the guards all have to "go to sleep" or "regenerate" for a few hours. That would allow a sanctioned time when a raid would be possible. You could keep guards in the Newbie-safe areas. There would be a five-minute warning or something like that.


No. This kind of time-restricted conflict is part of the problem with nexus weakenings or village influences.
Shiri2007-10-11 01:47:26
The problem is that people feel obligated to protect the Fae. This is supposed to be optional.
Unknown2007-10-11 02:30:43
I'd like to see some way to loot villages. Maybe a sort of King of the Hill thing. You enter the village and must kill the Comm Shopkeeper, so that there is an alert to the org being attacked. At which point the attackers then RAID STORES, which auto-declares all people from the attacking org that are in the village when it is used, so that they can be attacked without the need for someone to enemy them first. At which point, every X amount of time, a small amount of comms is transferred to the raiding org, so its the defending orgs mission to dislodge them. If the raid is kept up long enough for the village to be drained of comms, then the village won't tithe to its controlling org for X amount of months, which increases the longer the raid goes on.

Also a way to siege a Nexus. By traveling to the related Sphere on the Astral Plane, you can, at the cost of commodities and time and effort, manage to gain access to the opponent's nexus. Again, its a sort of king of the hill scenario, where power cannot be drawn from or added to the nexus by org members so long as the siege is underway, and power is continually siphoned from one nexus to the other. However, the Nexus responds by granting all org members AstralGlide so that they can defend, and this siege also has an effect on Node of the sphere, causing it to pulse wildly as it draws in some of the excess energy from the power transfer between orgs. This causes the node to refill, while also causing astral mobs to spawn, which would limit the ability of the siege to continue for obscene amounts of time, even if there are no defenders present. The longer the siege goes on, the more astral mobs spawn, aand of course there's insanity to limit things. If timed right, this can block the power-boost from the necromente, drums, flame, and star, while also causing blocking village boosts and even causing guards to be disbanded due to their lack of upkeep. Only constructs would be uneffected, as they are within the Nexus.
Xenthos2007-10-11 02:41:25
QUOTE(S.A.W. @ Oct 10 2007, 10:30 PM) 448543
Stuff.

Both of these are org-conflicts, which have historically been nerfed to death in the past because they Burn People Out.