I loled after that too! I just stood there in shock for a couple of minutes before I recovered enough to send people after you.



I always want to join in, I'm just never around. It's sad to be reduced to forum-troll status

I'm more talking about the easy way to escape insanity-- transverse to Cosmic with a small bastion left on the sphere to keep warning out (though easier getting up/getting down is part of it). Watched Mag do this any number of times. 2/3 of their force sits on Nil when they have most of the nodes, and just comes up to trounce their opponent who has already accrued a much larger amount of insanity. Haven't paid as much attention to Celest during wildnodes when they're winning, but they've got the same option. Communes participating have no real choice but to get full insanity, and by the end are pretty wrecked.

That's true, we did do this in Mag often enough. We just left one person on each node, or (every once in awhile) maybe just a couple of people if we were way ahead (including the demesne holder). They just gather all of the nodes, set up stonewalls/runes (rad is awesome to keep people away from the nodes)/etc., then leave a few watchmen and wait where it's safe. The guards watch all of the other groups by constant scrying until they see them on the move, then warn everyone to come up when they get close.

It works really well - would be nice if the communes could do it too. Of course it wouldn't do Seren any good right now, since I've never seen more than about 3 people from Seren show up for wildenodes.

During wildenodes, anyone can astroglide, even if you don't have the skill. I dunno if it costs power or not, but I remember doing it while I was in Seren.

Yes. It costs 5p, and there's no staging ground just off the Sphere where you can avoid insanity.

I don't mean to be the guy who metaphorically wizzed in your cornflakes or anything, but man, you and the rest of the Administration have it kind wrong when you go about things concerning combat or conflict. While I'm relatively 'new' (I played a Geomancer for a few hours when the game opened, then played Rodngar the Blademaster, faded out, now I'm back as a Tahtetso), I can't help but think of myself as moderately experienced in IRE Combat. My name isn't amazingly notable (I am, or was until I quit the game, Arlith, Sarrius, and Deinsek of Imperian), but this post isn't about credentials.

What it is about is the perception of a new player moving from IRE game to another and pretty much scoffing at how different the Administration treats everybody here. From what I see, you're all so caught up in making the little carebear customers feel good that you neglect a larger and much more central part of the game that draws more people in. The way you cater to the people who cry 'grief!' every kill really alienates the people who come over for the rather powerful potential of the combative system (many come over to roleplay along with that, like myself. I agree there is sometimes a problem with people who come just to PK) you have here - especially since it has so many nice concepts that are impossible to put elsewhere or are not in any other Iron Realms Game (the Monks and the way Warriors work here are my two favorite things in Lusternia). While I am not saying to let brutal thugs run rampant across the game and rampage across newbieland, burninating the country side or anything.. I do think you should stop trying to give the players the impression that you want to kill conflict that is the only real way you can harm your enemy organizations.

To put it more simply, I could go out and kick some poor chump's hind end across the Prime. Does that mean anything in the long term scale of my organization versus his? No. Sure, you may get a scuffle or two, but in the end it doesn't mean jack. Now attacking a city and killing their guards, important mobiles, obliterating statues if that is possible, and doing all sorts of other physically and visibly destructive things? That is a visible mark and a 'real' victory. It may be considered griefing to some, but it's just the way IRE has worked because there is no clear cut way to declare a war won or a city decimated. It's a problem across all of the games - but the way you go about things perpetuates it.

From what I can see, in Lusternia, raiding is impossible or highly improbable and has been for a while. The changes you instate (giving cities a room-wide stun, guards immunity to crits, passive webbing, different damage types.. did I miss anything else?) really do away with the visibility of a 'way to win', so to speak. Also from what I see, this inability to raid (and stir the pot, more directly) really cuts off what fights people can and can't start - which leads to gradually less PK. Outside of the arena, I don't hear much about real combat - maybe it's because I don't have or keep up deathwatch or I generally ignore Celest's CT.. but it feels like Lusternia really doesn't have much combat.

My suggestion? Stop listening to people crying about griefing and tell them to man up or get out.

My next suggestion? Strongly look at what you're doing to guards, planar defenses, and other related subjects.

My third suggestion? Find a way to encourage combat outside of the arena, and consider re-evaluating the experience loss that you suffer in certain areas, along with Karmic loss.

To follow up on my last suggestion? Do not make it a corny 'everybody gets power' or 'everybody gets a bashing buff!' reward. That just encourages more stagnation. Unless you severely deflate the massive amounts of power that cities have through some quest (a real, visible way of attacking a city.. oh noes! A reason to kill people.. look, three birds with one stone!), some action or skill, etc.. gaining power means nothing - what is 20 to even 1000 power in the face of the fact that every city and commune likely has upwards 200k to 1M in power?).

And, almost entirely off topic but still related to combat? Reconsider how the envoy system works. From what I have heard about it, I am not very impressed or pleased - the process is a little too inclined toward a corrupt or terribly biased way of thinking. It endorses a harsh skewing or balance, or even endorses neglect to certain areas an archetype or specialization needs.

The mobiles respawn and guards can be replaced. It does nothing but irritate other players. Villages are a good thing to fight over. It's fun even if you get you butt handed to you. Adding something like villages on the planes or in aetherspace would be a good idea.

The guards are more or less fine, I say that cause we don't know how bard guards work yet, but currently the bards are fine. The changes were made so that one person, literally one person a.k.a. Thoros cannot kill every single guard. Literally rooms of 50-70 guards. He has shown that he can kill them all in one night. These changes should effectively stop that. What I might be more inclined to agree on is the discretionary power bit. Since raiding should be about fighting one another rather than just another bashing ground or bashing guards.

I have to agree with pretty much everything Rodngar has said... it reflects mainly how I feel about Lusternian combat.

I actually have to disagree with everything Rodngar said. First, people come to Lusternia with complaints from the other games because "griefing" is so rampant there.

1. I left Achaea partially because theft and random jumpings were so annoying - there was never anything to fight over, just constant fighting to feel tough. Lusternia does a good job of avoiding the Warcraft syndrome that is present when conflict isn't controlled.

2. The administration here is usually very good about listening to the players. There are a couple of instance where the admin just says "this is the way it will be," but those are rare. In almost every case they are open to input and take suggestions.

3. The vast majority of people who want conflict quests/etc. back are those who never experienced them before. Let me save you the time and effort - they are not fun. We (the older players who experienced them) don't want them.

4. Attacking a city and killing everything they have is a lot of fun - and there are plenty of ways to do that, like raiding the outer planes. Discretionary powers need to be looked at, as we've all been suggesting in this thread, but otherwise that option is open. You should not be able to destroy another city completely or cost them a lot in one raid, especially because that just encourages off-prime-time raids instead of actual conflict. Most of the post assumes that guards block conflict, but in reality the best conflict occurs where no guards can be placed.

5. This seems to be based a lot on ignorance - there is plenty of conflict between the two cities. The forests could use more, but I think the cities do well enough most of the time.

6. How can you respond to one of the admin asking for advice by saying that the admin never listen?

7. The envoy process is amazing, and is the one reason that all classes are basically balanced in Lusternia. I can't speak for Aetolia, but this is definitely not the case in Achaea or Imperian. Both of the games have their strengths, but balance between classes is absolutely not one of them.

The thing is, there actually are things in Lusternia that are worth fighting over. Villages, constructs, commodities, and power are all vital to a state's success. Unfortunately, conflict over these things has been reduced to the point that people would complain if it was no longer so easy to get these things and maintain their hold on them. Constructs, for example, are ridiculously powerful because they are supposed to be temporary and quickly destroyed. However, destroying constructs has been made so difficult that the overpowered state is now the norm, and destroying a construct would piss off every person who no longer has the benefit of the construct.


They listen to players and then usually do one of two things: they either largely disregard what was agreed on and continue with what they had planned already or they listen to the loudest minority. This has, of course, resulted in conflict being massively toned down because of the people who were grumbling about having to defend themselves all the time.


Hey, I've been around since open beta and I liked the conflict quests. While they (and their counter-quests) needed to be less GRIND GRIND GRIND, they did add an excellent way to harm an opposing organization in a very real, material manner.


One raid, no. Many raids, yes. As it stands, raiding anything does not hurt a city in any tangible fashion. Killing villagers makes the village slightly less favorable towards that city... well, it would if village feelings were actually implemented. You can sap power from a nexus by killing things on city-aligned planes, but the nexuses have so much power to begin with that it's hardly even noticeable.


From someone who plays primarily in the forests, yes, we do need more conflict here. And, from someone with fairly frequently-played characters on both sides, a great way to do this would be to look at choke, which is definitely a one-sided conflict stopper.


See above. The administration is extremely heavy-handed and will likely do it their own way anyway.


...wait, what? Since when are all classes basically balanced?

Also, I totally just noticed that Rodngar is "dragon" with the letters shuffled around. Hee.

None of these recent changes have anything to do with any of the worthwhile conflict you mentioned. We still fight over villages, we still fight over constructs, we still fight over power. Commodities aren't really worth fighting over, in that they are tied in with villages. Constructs should be tweaked, but that is a completely separate discussion which has nothing to do with the death of raiding.

I don't think that's true. Let's take this change to guards, for example - it was suggested and agreed upon by everyone I have ever seen post on the topic on these forums. I never heard anybody say that guards were perfectly strong as they were; everyone agreed they needed upgrades. Now they got an upgrade, and it is that "loud minority" that seems to be complaining about it. There are definitely some things that need to be fixed, but to say that raiding is becoming impossible is simply not true - there are several of us who pull it off on a pretty regular basis.



Weren't you from Serenwilde during open beta? That hardly counts for conflict quests!

To do anything more forces the defending org to do a lot of stuff they really don't want to do to make up for it. The problem is in your whole way of thinking. We should give someone a reasonable reason to raid and make a difference - I agree with that much. We should not make the defending org go through tons of things to make up for an off-peak raid. I want to raid too, why should I have to spend hours questing or gathering stupid items just because a few people from your org decided to raid mine while I wasn't even around?



I agree that the forests need more conflict, but that is our own fault, not the admins. The members of both forests have pretty successfully quelled conflict on several different occasions all on their own, regardless of the skills involved.

You must be privy to several admin decisions that I haven't heard about. While there are some decisions like that which people constantly complain about, the vast majority of admin decisions are based on player input.



You've obviously never fought a monk in Achaea or Imperian.

@rodgnar
I will accept guards can be killed and statues be tuned against personal enemies or destroyed in the city, however, if one person keeps doing it, able to slay guards, escape when back-up arrives (just to annoy the hell out of us, especially if they do "ha ha, can't catch me"), then something is definitely wrong here.

What the admins did was to keep these people who do solo raids a minimum. Raids are suppose to be done by groups, never alone. Also, people who just keep on 'touch cubix' whore also brings out the fun, I mean, you're there to raid, we're suppose to be able to fight back, escaping the very second we arrive is plain annoying, I'll admit to defeat should I die to the raider.

With an extra R >.>

@Lysandus, yeah I kind of understand, but alot of times people don't even come out of their nexus room when there is a true raid, unless the odds are 5 to 1 in their favour. This happens with all sides not just Celest though. So of course people will run when 1 person is raiding and 15 people show up to stop him, it is no fun to die in 2 seconds with no way to actually get some kills in. I guess that people are so scared of conflict that they will not go out on their own or fight 2 to 1 at least anymore, which is another problem with conflict in Lusternia, and that is the players fault for that one... not the admin.

edit - Now if it was 1v1 and the person was cubixing out, well that is weaksauce, unless he was getting hit by those damn stunning angels that celest has

First off, my thanks to Revan and Blastron for saying most of what I think needs to be said.


There's nothing in Achaea to fight over because Achaea has degenerated in to a chat room with skills nobody is allowed to use. It's lasted so long because it's the juggernaut 'first product' of IRE - if it was the only thing IRE had, it would have gone bankrupt already, I assure you. You cannot compare Achaea and any IRE MUD - because future IRE games are much more refined because they took steps forward that Achaea no longer can. Lusternia doesn't need to control it's conflict because it doesn't have one that isn't a weekly or bi-weekly revolt, some random 'I AM A VERNAL GOD VILLIAN' event, or some event for a new god, archetype, organization, or area. I think Blastron had it pretty right when he said constructs have played big in to destroying conflict - what Lusternia needs is a sudden removal of this system, or as new way to completely destroy them. There are things in Lusternia to fight for - the problem is, once an organization gets entrenched in these things, you can kiss the prospect of taking them (back) goodbye.

Griefing is a common problem in every game. The Administration cannot stop all griefing - it would obliterate any form of conflict whatsoever, thus giving us another Achaea environment where you need real life lawyers or a masters from Law School to know if you can or can't PK Chump X or Idiot B. If you stop one form of griefing, you will only give people incentive to find another. What you do is punish the biggest culprits, make examples of them, and cease punishing the entirety for the faults of a singular player.



I'm sorry, that isn't a good way to handle listening to players - the single greatest problem with IRE is that their producers claim to know the game they reign over. However, they know it only mechanically or how they think it should be. In reality, they know very little about the game - they aren't allowed to play in the playground they built, and thus aren't allowed to really say they grasp combat balance, how a change will effect the game, or how a change or tweak here or there will cause ripples in the entire experience of the game. They may claim they do, but I am a firm, firm supporter in the fact that they know very little compared to a player, whose business it is to expect, project, and figure out how changes will effect their investment of time or money or their fun.

They take input, but honestly, that argument is double-edged: they also take input from envoys. I will not get too far in to my opinion of the envoy system, but let us just say it is what I would call 'a total failure'. When they put up the big joke poll about how envoys should be public, I was serious when I said they should be if only because it would discourage corruption or lame vetos/suggestions that utterly obliterate the balance (or further shoves it to the ground and curbstomps it, from what I understand). Those who aren't prepared to catch flak for suggesting controversial or dumb changes shouldn't take the job: the potential to be harassed is as big as a guild master takes or an administrator or any god. You cannot whine if you want to take a hand in helping balance the game, sorry.

My biggest example of all of this is when Bards were broken in the 'we sorta kinda really suck' way and the envoys for Bards (and even some other envoys) tried to push forward such things to fix them. This goes further: I was told the Administration firmly believed that deafness and blindness should be afflictions - but they obviously don't/didn't grasp that if it protects a play from every offense attempt from an archetype, it is commonly considered a defense. I don't mean to flame, troll, or blast them for that.. but really, it was a common sense thing.

Please do not tout that you are an 'elder' of the game. I could say the same about Imperian - does that make me any more right than somebody else who may be a little more perceptive than I? Honestly, if the first batch of conflict quests failed, nix them and learn from the mistake - try a new approach. You cannot say something shouldn't exist because it 'may harm somebody else' or it may be considered an attempt to grief - that's just plain ignorant, selfish, and maybe even a little conceited. So you want a peaceful game? Go play Super Mario or something single player - all IRE games are meant to be conflict driven. The Administration should focus on this and try to provide conflict for the majority of people interested in it, instead of catering to the minority who just want to be craftsmen and craftswomen - selling panties and burgers and slices of pizza out of their shops.



Attacking a city and killing everything isn't just fun - it is the only true visible victory. Somebody previously said that it is not a victory - then what do you call the fact that a city has to waste time, more money, more power?, and likely more everything just to get a suitable guard force going? What do you call the loss of experience that is generated by players dying in mass amounts? That is a victory in my book - you succeeded in harming the city by attacking their resources, their investment of time, and other things.

Discretionary powers need to not just be nerfed, but removed. They discourage conflict because there is nowhere left to fight. Here is what I imagine happens:

"Hey guys, Big Griefy McGriefakins is out there on Ethereal/Water/Earth/Celestia/Nil.. let's activate the powers because I can't bash without him ganking me on my way there!".

Big Griefy McGriefakins just wanted to start some fights and have some fun killing some people who would likely then retaliate in some way. Sadly, Big Grief McGriefakins is obliterated by the massive amount of damage, afflictions, stuns, or other given problems that the powers cause - coupled with a few scrubs trying to gank him on his way out. That doesn't encourage conflict. It encourages carebears hitting level 100 and then sitting around AFK all day thinking up new ways to describe clothing, or amassing gold that participates in inflating credit prices for less fortunate players who just want to get a couple to try and PK with.

I am part of Celestia - I'm on regularly. I see a large amount of people on. Celest has at least five to fifteen people on Prime when I'm on. What happens? Nothing. Nobody even gripes about Magnagorans or suggests an attack or anything - and I sure as hell don't see any of the Mags trying to stir the pot.



Because unlike most of the people on these forums, I feel that being brutally honest with them will yield more results than sucking up and saying 'aww, you do a good job screwing us over!' in the most sugar-coated of words as possible.

Oh man. No. No, no, no, no. You know what? I'll dig deep here and tell you just how much sense I think that statement doesn't make.

The envoy process is based entirely, I think, on the selfish needs of the envoys themselves. Without a true public forum to be viewed by the public like it is done in Imperian and Aetolia, the envoys can easily sit there and privately look as dumb as they want. My biggest example I can think of right now is that while Monks maybe be broken in certain aspects, any attempt to suggest much-needed fixes in met with spiteful comments of 'MONKS ARE BROKEN, I CAN'T BEAT THEM AND YOUR ATTEMPT TO GET THINGS TRADED OFF TO BALANCE THEM IS OBVIOUSLY LAME'. From what I hear, Desitrus has tried to get fixes to Tahtetso, Kata, Harmony, and Acrobatic (since it was designed with Bards in mind) - and it has been met with veto after veto because certain people just do not think Monks need anything.

What this is, really, is a blatant show of ignorance and a lack of caring for the environment of the game they are designed to help balance, protect, and improve. Things that have needed fixing, quite likely, have gone on as being broken or trashed for weeks, months, maybe even a year or years - because the other envoys have an absolute stranglehold over 95% of every change put up by their colleagues. This is why I suggested that the report system be considered - or aspects of it. So what if it takes a week or two to code? Or a month? For the trade-off of a public forum where the idiocy and corrupt behavior of any single envoy can be seen, ridiculed, and responded to.. why wouldn't we wait patiently for this addition?

It is my firm belief that classleads/envoys are less inclined to act like total idiots with no regard for their job but only for self-interest (to keep broken skills, for instance) if they are thus held accountable by the community. When I became a classlead on Imperian, I accepted the job knowing any change I suggested may be publically ridiculed or blasted (several were and I politely explained myself - several were also removed by myself when I realized how broken my proposals in the reports were). The system, right now, is what strikes me as a total failure. If you place so much power in to the hands of players, you end up with a failure in terms of balance.

The quandary here? My previous point about Admins not knowing jack about their own game. How do you fix this? I don't have an answer. There has to be a balance - but leaning it in either direction too heavily results in problems.

Keep in mind I am pointing no fingers at anybody - I am working off what three past and two current envoys have told me about the system, and the opinions and explanations of other players, not to mention my personal experience as a class leader in Imperian.



Once classleads were given to somebody smart, Imperian's Monks are slowly being brought in to line. The only skill really not addressed was Kai Choke - but I'm very confident it'll get fixed with the Kaido change. Imperian Monks are broken in their current form, yes - but they are not Lusternia's monks, so what bearing does that have on your argument? The answer is none.

You want to know why most classes aren't balanced, by the way? Because the Envoy system SUCKS.



This I agree with. But yet again, they punished the entirety of the player base because of one individual who broke the system - what you should be looking at is why he can tank all those mobs?

Is it because he's a Demigod (Demigods and Titans here get ridiculous powers that baffle me)? Maybe. Probably. Oh well.

If by "brutally honest" you mean calling the admin incompetent, stupid and blind, then guess what--you won't be taken seriously and your ideas (even if they were valid) will be tossed away with the rest of the trash. I don't care who you are or what you have to say--it shuts down conversation.

If you think the admin don't know "jack about their own game", well there's the door. Don't let it hit you on the way out.

I'm sorry that you get so terribly offended by my comments - but that's another can of worms entirely that I'm not willing to open here.

However, telling me 'don't let the door hit you on the way out' is kind of amusing. I'm here to stay and if you aren't going to listen a sensible argument.. well, that's your fault.

The simple fact of the matter is that no one fights on Lusternia anymore.

Don't believe me? Keep a log of deathsight for a few hours. I guarantee that, unless there is a raid on, you will see 2-3 people dying to other players in those few hours, tops.

Anyway, I do agree with most of Rodngar's sentiment. Conflict is pretty much dead.

Thank you for condensing my argument in a simple statement. Maybe the Admin will feel more inclined to listen to you because your version is a lot less of an assumed personal attack.

That's just not true. The fact is that so few people seem to want to fight anyone of their own ability. It's mostly just people like Ariatas hunting down random people for spurious reasons like "defending Etherwilde." 90% of people just aren't that interested in fighting, and presumably the people that are beat him.

If anything, your Avechna whatever clan should be proof of how many people are actively interested in being involved in combat when all that leads to is being ganked repeatedly while hunting in PK-free zones later. And most of them don't fight much out of the arena either.

EDIT: And what's with the "outside of raids"? I bet very few people make private designs "outside of cartels" too.