Forren2007-10-16 21:34:01
Only problem with adding new benefits is where to draw the line.
Sacrifice is not usable with Demigods. Should we get a benefit?
Resurgem is not usable on Demigods. Should there be a benefit?
Lich and Darkrebirth already have non-xp-loss bonuses associated with them.
Transmigrate would need a bonus to it (unless something already exists?)
Sacrifice is not usable with Demigods. Should we get a benefit?
Resurgem is not usable on Demigods. Should there be a benefit?
Lich and Darkrebirth already have non-xp-loss bonuses associated with them.
Transmigrate would need a bonus to it (unless something already exists?)
Forren2007-10-16 21:35:18
QUOTE(Catarin @ Oct 16 2007, 05:30 PM) 450528
Edit: And quite frankly it is a bit frustrating to be told here that the majority will just isn't all that big of a concern in terms of balance issues. Truehealing was taken away from all of one org quickly enough when the majority spoke up even with a pretty sizeable minority against it. And it WAS imbalanced. And THIS is imbalanced. The concern for wanting people to keep the utility of their skills when becoming demigod in no way shape or form justifies an action this extreme.
This too.
Catarin2007-10-16 21:38:47
QUOTE(Forren @ Oct 16 2007, 03:34 PM) 450530
Only problem with adding new benefits is where to draw the line.
Sacrifice is not usable with Demigods. Should we get a benefit?
Resurgem is not usable on Demigods. Should there be a benefit?
Lich and Darkrebirth already have non-xp-loss bonuses associated with them.
Transmigrate would need a bonus to it (unless something already exists?)
Sacrifice is not usable with Demigods. Should we get a benefit?
Resurgem is not usable on Demigods. Should there be a benefit?
Lich and Darkrebirth already have non-xp-loss bonuses associated with them.
Transmigrate would need a bonus to it (unless something already exists?)
Apparently yes. All of our skills, even those we get from a construct, should be as useful as a demigod as they are when they aren't. Which you know, is fine if that is what wants to be pursued. I am just failing to see how that desire has anything major to do with something this imbalanced heh.
Forren2007-10-16 21:40:08
QUOTE(Catarin @ Oct 16 2007, 05:38 PM) 450534
Apparently yes. All of our skills, even those we get from a construct, should be as useful as a demigod as they are when they aren't. Which you know, is fine if that is what wants to be pursued. I am just failing to see how that desire has anything major to do with something this imbalanced heh.
Some constructs don't even help Demigods. Seren's soul resurgem, while arguably the best of the ones currently here, does nothing for a Demigod.
Estarra2007-10-16 21:40:57
As an aside, this is really a no-win situation for the admin. We will either be accused of being biased to certain players who complain the loudest as the "squeaky wheel gets greased" (take a look at the percentage of posts in this 150+ post thread are from the same few players). A constant barrage of heated posts to try and force a change you think is necessary actually has a negative effect!
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Unknown2007-10-16 21:41:09
Why not make things like Lich and Blacknest self usable as a Demi. So Magnagoran Demigod can Lich himself if he feels like it.
That way the skill doesn't become useless
If Magnagoran Demigod dies as either Liched or non Lich he Pheonix's, loses essence and life continues.
Same applies for Blacknest.
For something like Sacrafice, make the Demi die more like a non-demi characater.
That way the skill doesn't become useless
If Magnagoran Demigod dies as either Liched or non Lich he Pheonix's, loses essence and life continues.
Same applies for Blacknest.
For something like Sacrafice, make the Demi die more like a non-demi characater.
Forren2007-10-16 21:45:32
QUOTE(Estarra @ Oct 16 2007, 05:40 PM) 450537
As an aside, this is really a no-win situation for the admin. We will either be accused of being biased to certain players who complain the loudest as the "squeaky wheel gets greased" (take a look at the percentage of posts in this 150+ post thread are from the same few players). A constant barrage of heated posts to try and force a change you think is necessary actually has a negative effect!
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
I understand why you wait. However -
This outcry is not for a new change - it's a reaction to a change that was just discovered from the status quo. A reaction against a decision that was not announced and is obviously a major change to the way Demigods acted. The envoy demigod report did not request this. Balancing was based around the fact that certain things did not work for Demigods, because the very idea that they would work would mean some Demigods are immune to essence loss entirely. I have not heard one person argue here that it should stay like it is currently.
Ildaudid2007-10-16 21:47:26
QUOTE(Estarra @ Oct 16 2007, 05:40 PM) 450537
As an aside, this is really a no-win situation for the admin. We will either be accused of being biased to certain players who complain the loudest as the "squeaky wheel gets greased" (take a look at the percentage of posts in this 150+ post thread are from the same few players). A constant barrage of heated posts to try and force a change you think is necessary actually has a negative effect!
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Yarr, Estarra is the queen
Catarin2007-10-16 21:48:42
QUOTE(Estarra @ Oct 16 2007, 03:40 PM) 450537
As an aside, this is really a no-win situation for the admin. We will either be accused of being biased to certain players who complain the loudest as the "squeaky wheel gets greased" (take a look at the percentage of posts in this 150+ post thread are from the same few players). A constant barrage of heated posts to try and force a change you think is necessary actually has a negative effect!
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Or we will be accused of being biased if we don't immediately do what "everyone agrees" should "obviously" be done. Ah, well, we're just not going to make any decisions right at this moment. I think some people are fairly emotional and we'll just wait until cooler heads prevail.
Technically, it has been proven at least once that it does not have all that negative an effect as changes have been made because of it.
There isn't anyone in this thread that has said no essence loss when a demigod dies is good, ever. No one. It really feels like the admin are focusing more on the structure of the argument than the argument itself. No one is demanding an instant change.
What was asked was why this was changed. The answer eventually was it was an administrative decision due to the idea that people should not use the utility of certain skills due to becoming a demigod. Several people have addressed that in a non-inflammatory or demanding manner. The admin still have not addressed the inherently imbalanced situation this creates. Honestly it seems a bit unfair to just say "Well, obviously people are upset about this so we're not going to address it."
Who is even accusing of bias one way or another? Who is the minority that wants this to stay the way it is? I mean, in theory I can understand the arguments here but in terms of this particular case they really do not seem to apply.
Ashteru2007-10-16 21:48:44
Just to show off my leet skillz:
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
Unknown2007-10-16 21:49:54
QUOTE(Morgfyre @ Oct 16 2007, 11:23 PM) 450514
All of them? Which percent? Are there polling errors? Can even a single objection be overriden by the will of the majority? What percent of the minority do we need to override their concern? Consensus? 90%? 50%? 25%? 5%?
Without getting any more ridiculous I think you can see why Lusternia's development isn't determined by consensus or polling (though there have been MUDs which have tried this in the past, and subsequently the players voted to forego that system in favor of administrative-led development after it failed).
We are always open to considering other alternatives, but it seems a bit silly to me that certain skills (transmigrate, etc.) would have targetted exceptions that they do not function for Demigods. What other avenues should we explore?
We saw a lot of concern by Demigods when phoenix costs were greater that the limiting factor on their power (threat of losing Demigod) wasn't an interesting or enjoyable mechanic. Also, when initially Demigod powers were restricted (a timer on ascension to the havens), there were numerous cries (by many of the same people who are now posting in this thread, notably Forren and Aesyra) that limiting Demigod powers made it worthless to be a Demigod and that they were going to quit the game because they had been so nerfed. I'm skeptical that anything has changed since then that would make it otherwise. What should be the counterbalance to Demigod powers?
Without getting any more ridiculous I think you can see why Lusternia's development isn't determined by consensus or polling (though there have been MUDs which have tried this in the past, and subsequently the players voted to forego that system in favor of administrative-led development after it failed).
We are always open to considering other alternatives, but it seems a bit silly to me that certain skills (transmigrate, etc.) would have targetted exceptions that they do not function for Demigods. What other avenues should we explore?
We saw a lot of concern by Demigods when phoenix costs were greater that the limiting factor on their power (threat of losing Demigod) wasn't an interesting or enjoyable mechanic. Also, when initially Demigod powers were restricted (a timer on ascension to the havens), there were numerous cries (by many of the same people who are now posting in this thread, notably Forren and Aesyra) that limiting Demigod powers made it worthless to be a Demigod and that they were going to quit the game because they had been so nerfed. I'm skeptical that anything has changed since then that would make it otherwise. What should be the counterbalance to Demigod powers?
I do believe I've said several times how I see the issue. If you set the design of the game to have two large conflict fronts and again by design make it impossible for certain classes to be in certain nations (for example nihilists in celest) then you mustn't be surprised if people cry fool at certain skill, ability or feat changes - especially if they are unannounced.
Quick summary:
1.) I think the essence cost for phoenix death is fine now.
2.) I do NOT think that only certain players should have the advantage of NEVER losing essence upon death while certain other players ALWAYS lose it. Lich, egg, darkrebirth is not like conglutinate - a skill that everyone will get. One side of the conflicting parties has it, the other will never be able to.
3.) I do not think you can expect players (or demigods) to find it fair that they die and lose essence while KNOWING that when their opponent dies 90% of the time they won't lose crapshit.
4.) I don't think you can expect people to not be at least stupefied that this change wasn't announced, even if it was just a mistake. It's not a small bugfix it's a -change- that affects quite a few people of the game.
Forren2007-10-16 21:50:04
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Oct 16 2007, 05:48 PM) 450544
Just to show off my leet skillz:
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
I'm biased for not liking how some Demigods can be immune to essence loss entirely?
Catarin2007-10-16 21:54:31
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Oct 16 2007, 03:48 PM) 450544
Just to show off my leet skillz:
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
Forren 41
Catarin 32
Ashteru 25
shadow 14
Malicia 11
I'd like to think that Catarin and I were fairly unbiased. <.<
In terms of how most of these discussions go I think this is amazingly unheated and unbiased. I am just not...getting it I guess.
Ashteru2007-10-16 21:55:08
QUOTE(Forren @ Oct 16 2007, 09:50 PM) 450547
I'm biased for not liking how some Demigods can be immune to essence loss entirely?
You are biased for losing your cool.
Ashteru2007-10-16 21:57:10
QUOTE(shadow @ Oct 16 2007, 09:49 PM) 450546
crapshit
Isn't that word redundant? <.<
Unknown2007-10-16 22:05:09
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Oct 16 2007, 11:57 PM) 450550
Isn't that word redundant? <.<
no. If you write it as two words it gets censored. Both don't.
Anyway back to topic!
Veonira2007-10-16 22:05:55
Ildaudid2007-10-16 22:15:54
Comprimise?? Here??? The Forrenator would never succumb to such actions!!!! Be gone lovely lady who does the funniest :censor: here 
Aison2007-10-16 22:22:33
I vote in favour of the removal of constructs altogether.
/derail
/derail
Daganev2007-10-16 22:23:22
OMG, 10 pages allready? I was about to close this thread thinking it was a necro of an old skill that has long been changed... 10 pages!?!? better go read them.
