Okay, a few things I'm not understanding. First off, the demigods seem to continually say that essence cost for phoenix is essentially nothing and that you will never lose demigod unless you want to. If that is the case, who really cares whether a person with lich loses essence or not? It is a negligible cost for anyone...if dying costs you 3 gold and costs me no gold, would you complain that I need to be nerfed and it's not fair that it costs me nothing? If the cost is negligible in any case, who cares whether it is more negligible for one side than the other?

Also, I would like to refer people back to the years of complaints about lich not giving avenger status. The explanation for this has always been that lich is not actually a death - this is something that many people have explained over and over again and accepted as fair. Doesn't it follow that if it is not considered a death in Avechna's eyes, it should also not cost essence, because it is not truly a death? You can only have it one way or the other, you can't switch sides to whatever fits your forum RP.

No offense intended but there have been many cases in which the "squeaky wheel" has succeeded. If you'd like, I can compile a list. The fact that you're now suddenly afraid of being accused of this seems to me to be a scapegoat.

I'm pointing this out not to cause an argument, but to further express my point that the only person I've seen who could qualify as a non-cooler head is Aesyra. It confuses me, as well, that you say you want to wait for cooler heads to prevail but you've not said anything regarding whether you'll be keeping this topic open for discussion, and how long it takes for heads to cool. Are you saying that the wheel that squeaks for the longest (IE, if an appropriate amount of time has passed for heads to cool, and this is still a topic of concern) will win? What do we need to do to demonstrate that there are some people here with cooler heads. If there are people here with cool heads, does it matter? Who's making the decision, us or you? Do you think there's any side of the story that will be presented when we have cooler heads?

It is my opinion that Forren, Catarin, Malicia have all posted coherent posts with their opinions based on facts as they see them. If you don't like these facts, that's one thing. You're the Chief Admin and you're allowed to disagree, but waiting for cooler heads is unnecessary. Players have submitted ideas, and are asking for the administration to make a decision, like the one that got us into this discussion. To sum it up: we're asking for a decision to be made on a very pressing issue for people.

You read my mind. I literally stopped reading at this point.

Waiting for cooler heads is always a good idea. This thread has existed for only a few hours, and the vast majority of the 10 pages have been made up by the same few people. It is always a bad idea to make any decision with such limited input. That the admin are wise enough to avoid making a decision based solely on those loud voices simply demonstrates that they have learned something - she never claimed that they had never made that mistake before, only that they will not this time.

Who's not cool? The only person I've seen that I could consider as not-cool is Aesyra, as I said.

Are you saying that a post that has many people very opinionated means that a decision should take a while to reach? So, in other words, the people who have the energy to fight this battle over the next , should be the ones who are listened to in the end? Do you think that there's anything that anyone could say that would be different from what has already been said? You seem to imply that the number of posts in this thread is indicative of how hot-headed people are being. I disagree. I think that the number of posts are indicative of how much people care about the subject, which is not the same at all.

You're right that you can point out other cases where the squeaky wheel has been greased, and I've felt guilty every time! I've really regretted some of the times when I've acting precipitously in the past. Anyway, maybe one of the cooler heads to wait for is my own and I want some time to think over options. Why do I need to rush a decision? I really don't think the issue is as "pressing" as you make out.

I actually agree, when I become an undead monk, it might be a scary thing.
/derail




/agree

@Myndie: Yes you have some really valid points, so I am enthralled by them, should we squeak alot to try and override some of the other sqeakers? I think the only coherent (cool headed) posts here right now are from Malicia, (I don't think Forrens are as coherent and cool headed at all right now, and of course all of Catarin's are set on ignore by me so I don't know if they are coherent, but normally they are, so others may want to read them)

But yes, right now, the coolest head here is Malicia. So what do we do now, as it stands I don't think it is a big deal with the lich thing. I do think if it is changed, then it should not be overdone (which alot of time when changes are done they are overdone. Example we wanted less crap to do with the inner sea battle and sea of despair battle. We wanted Ladantine to remember how many fish he had before he was killed so we didnt have to get 250 more each time he was killed, and we asked for him to be a bit buffer. Well they did that but they also took out the whole conflict. Which was overdoing it IMO)

So if we are waiting for cooler heads, let Malicat do some strategizing, and set up what she thinks should be done to balance it on both sides. I will actually read it, back it if I agree (which right now, I see no problem in balancing it out more if need be.) But I also do think it truly isn't that big of a deal, like Mitbulls said, if it cost one person 3 gold when they die and the other none, it would not be something that is way out of balance.

Honestly, if there truly needs to be a major change, then lets make sure these "cooler" heads speak up with rational, agreeable changes to the demigod issue.

Then we can set up a thread about avatars, and how there should be only one per god. But that is for another thread.

There are two people that I'm confident would not be a demigod if it were not for this. No matter how negligible death may be, demigods still do have to not run out of essence and that does take some effort, even if it is small.

Also, lets take your scenario and make it closer to what we're talking about. If death cost me 3 gold, and I was only capable of making 10 gold in an hour, and if I run out of gold, my inventory is set to -1000000 gold and my income is reduced to 7 gold in an hour... then yes I would indeed want the "gold" loss to be even, and I hardly find that unreasonable.



If they get killed, they should appear in havens as a lich, minus whatever essence it would cost based on where they were. If it is on prime, they'd get status like any other demigod (or anyone, for that matter) who gets killed on prime.

What forum RP? Ok...

And you mean to say that simply because it's easier to maintain demigod status, it's fine that lich/transmigrate/dark rebirth negate essence loss? Oh it's possible to lose it. Harder, but possible. And even if they do lose it, what is it... 66% titan? That's nothing. There's really no concrete reason why persons with those abilities shouldn't lose anything.




These points make sense and shouldn't be ignored.



I don't believe anything should be decided right away, but I do hope that the concerns voiced here aren't dismissed. Also, I've seen changes put into effect almost immediately after a few players posted their complaints here. No one waited to see if a construct that gave sacrament users a zero-power trueheal would be overpowered in the long run. Estarra removed it right away, after a few hotheads went absolutely nuts on forums. (Though I do agree with its removal!) The same thing with beckoning into nexuses. There was a rant thread and the next day, an announce about temporary changes to movement into guards off Prime and the rearrangement of Celestia's layout.

Honestly Estarra, you should step away for about an hour, come back refreshed and read the posts that are NOT little flames or whining (ex like my earlier ones ) I think Malicia is about as cool as you are gonna get out of the original 3 (Catarin, Malicat and Forren). Yea sit back, relax, and re read it refreshed. Nothing good ever comes from being pressured to make changes. You should always relax and come at things (that are considered big decisions) with a nice cool head and a good feel. That way you will 90% of the time make a better choice, than you would being pressured into something.

I am only pointing out that people with lich never lose experience and it has never affected avenger, simply because that is the way the skill works. If you kill the person twice in a row, then they lose essence; the way it works right now seems to be exactly the same way it always works. It seems that this is the same argument about whether lich itself is OP, simply re-framed to target demigods specifically. Demigods who lich do not lose essence; non-demigods who lich do not lose experience. That is the nature of the skill. If you make it so that demigods lich and lose essence, then those demigods would often be killed twice quickly (having no defenses and usually stuck if the attackers are prepared), causing twice the experience loss. That seems to make this skill a bad thing, just like if a normal player lost experience when they liched.

They are valid points, which apply equally to non-demigods. If we are going to talk about those skills, we need to talk about them in universal application. The complaints do not seem to be about demigods, they are about those skills, which is a completely different topic.



I agree 100% with everything you say here. Estarra has mentioned that she regrets those things, and hopefully they have learned not to make such quick changes now. I think you're right that everything said here should be considered, but changes not made too quickly. At the very least, time should be left for everyone to weigh in so the decision can be well-informed.

Yes, I agree the ranting there was part of her reasoning for removing it. And yes it was a valid reason. Because it was considered insanely OP for the whole basin. But I think Estarra sat back for a minute and made a decision on her own, I don't think that one was a serious pressure by the players decision, even though it happened quickly.

But these examples you give are major major changes that had to be done in a speedy manner. People were abusing the hell out of the nexus's (Yes Magnagora, Celest, Serenwilde and Glomdoring all had people who would abuse the hell out of it). The TH thing was something that needed to be removed quick enough before people ended up abusing that as well. But I do think both these examples were alot more ummm I guess major then this demigod essence loss change, which only affects a small amount of people at the moment.


Now honestly Malicat, what do you truly suggest is done to alleviate this situation?

edit- Ohh Geb is posting, great now we will get cool headed responses by the wierdo who tends to be the most unbaised person around

I don't think it's all *that* pressing or critical. Just important. I doubt anyone (well, I won't and that's good enough right?) will mind some time being taken on the matter. As long as it's being looked at, I'm happy.

When magnagoran demigods die, do they run around as a soul and reform as a lich as normal, or do they still poof to havens?

My personal belief is that experience/essence is too easy to maintain. I also am of the opinion that the easier it is to maintain a certain power level, the more willing some are to stir up trouble (no fear of loss). Now, on this particular subject, I feel that either of the two below should suffice:

A. We go with the suggestion Myndean had, and make it so every demigod with a construct receives the same protection from essence loss.

B. All demigods are subject to the same essence loss from deaths, no matter the org or skill-sets.

I personally prefer B over A, because I feel demigod status should be something that is possible to lose. I feel there should be consequences for one's actions, and those who stir up a lot of trouble should have to worry about trouble biting them in the butt and stripping them of their Demigod status. Also, I have noticed that fear of loss seems to be the only thing that puts a damper on the actions of some people. I have seen plenty of times where some will sue for peace, hide away from others, or even post about becoming peaceful all in an attempt to avoid possible retribution that could lead to them losing something they desire (in this particular case, demigod). So I personally think harsher experience/essence loss penalties cause a person to regulate them selves more, than changes to external factors (like guards and such) which only causes those same very people to find new ways to continue their playstyle.

Pfh. we are talking cool as ice, baby.

And, to add onto that...I only use italics after I saw Jack using them. Hm.

Well, so far there are two demigods who I really really didn't want to be demigods, and likely wouldn't be demigods if not for lich being a free getaway for them. So yeah, its not "pressing", but I'll admit I'm frustrated at the wasted work and it makes me happy to be able to give people what I feel they deserve.

While I understand your frustration, I think that's a pretty empty accusation. I could just as easily say that I know of some demigods who only made it because trueheal lets them escape death and saved them so much experience.

Geb:



Lastly, you can't abuse beckoning someone into a nexus. It was a risk and enemy parties used to have to safeguard themselves against it. It does not take a genius to reject enemy-allies or to carry sigils. The change was implemented almost immediately after a rant. Same thing with Celestia's map. A few people complained and voila, map changed! Unless I'm mistaken and the majority of players declared Celestia to 'easy' too defend. But I digress. I don't want to derail this topic anymore than I might have, so yeah, see the above quote. I also agree with everything Geb stated in his post.

Not all of Celest gets trueheal though. I won't say anything else until this question is answered: