I am not certain what exactly you are arguing. The point of this thread is not complicated. People, such as yourself, are just making it complicated.

This is not a discussion regarding experience loss. Essence is NOT experience. Essence is the fuel a demigod uses to maintain their sort of half divine status and power their demigod abilities. It is NOT experience.

These skills being discussed mitigate *experience* loss. Since demigods have no experience to lose there is nothing to mitigate. If the demigod falls back down to titan, those skills will once again have their full usage because the character will once again have experience.

The essence system is a universal system unique to demigods. Everyone paid the same amount of essence for their special abilities. Everyone paid the same amount of essence when they died. It being equal helped to give it a natural sort of balance because all demigods were equal. They could all do the same things. They all had the same costs.

Again essence is not experience. You cannot use experience for other things if you happen to not lose it when you die. Comparing it to experience loss makes no sense. They have nothing in common except that killing NPCs can gain you both. These skills prevent you from losing XP upon death (and as long as it still shows "has been slain" on the deathsight, yes they do die regardless of abstract forum discussions). They say absolutely nothing about preventing you from losing essence upon death. They are working exactly as they did prior to demigod in that they are in fact preventing you from losing experience.

So to make them allow you to not lose essence is actually increasing the scope of the skill. Now they are not only preventing you from losing XP when you die as they did when you were working your way up to demigod, now that you don't actually have or use XP, they have morphed into preventing you from losing essence as well. That makes no sense and is actually upgrading these skills for demigods.

I will repeat. Essence is not experience. Prior to demigod, if I was resurrected or sacrificed for and did not have to pray, I would lose less experience. As a demigod that no longer applies because...I have no experience to lose. Any skills that applied to experience loss or gain should have no bearing on demigod essence. Essence and experience are not the same thing and people should stop treating them as such.

Well, we'll agree to disagree then. They're clearly not the same thing.

@Derian - Please tell me how you are going to inform me about Sacrament users and how they use trueheal? A few days ago, you didn't even know how it worked and I happily explained it to you in another thread in the Idiots section.

In short, by your logic, anything that prevents your death, is an noxp-loss ability. You cannot draw a parallel between trueheal and lichdom because they.are.not.the.same. If a Mag-player required 10p on their prompt to benefit from lich, I might buy your ludicrous claims, but they're not the same. There are conditions that stop it and it heals. A Sacrament user cannot die (that is, their health goes to -zero-) and escape essence/xp loss. You love arguing in circles.

From reading this thread, it basically looks like the Celestians coming in and saying that Magnagoran demigods should be nerfed without a very clear answer for why. I have not seen anyone who really agrees strongly with this point except for Celestians and Aesyra, and I haven't seen a very clear answer for how lich is really different from trueheal in this regard.

Trueheal has been used to prevent dying, but is trueheal the only way to prevent death? Can't a person simply...cubix? Or flee? Or serpent? Is tumble now the equivalent of lichdom, because a person can use it to escape death? I've listened to countless tumble arguments.

From this thread, it basically looks like the Celestians coming in and saying that Magnagoran demigods should be nerfed without a very clear answer for why. I have not seen anyone who really agrees strongly with this point except for Celestians and Aesyra, and I haven't seen a very clear answer for how lich is really different from trueheal in this regard.

Actually, no. Trueheal can be used in a lot of situations where these other options are simply not available, and by its nature gives another chance to follow through with these alternatives, though it won't get you out by itself.

That isn't to say it is the same thing as lichdom. It's not. The basis of this argument, however, is flawed. Trueheal is designed to be used in pretty much any instance no matter how screwed up you are, excepting stun or actually asleep.

Actually, no. Trueheal can be used in a lot of situations where these other options are simply not available, and by its nature gives another chance to follow through with these alternatives, though it won't get you out by itself.

That isn't to say it is the same thing as lichdom. It's not. The basis of this argument, however, is flawed. Trueheal is designed to be used in pretty much any instance no matter how screwed up you are, excepting stun or actually asleep.

Well, this considered, trueheal actually can be used in fewer situations than lich. As lich always gives a constant benefit in addition to the ability to escape death. Stat bonuses, +regen, an area attack (contagion), and with the construct a second area attack (lichcold) and lich will always fire regardless of how much power is on the prompt, irregardless of whether one is asleep or otherwise, and makes one absolutely invincible for a few moments (as opposed to only partially protected as far as trueheal goes) to move and escape.

That being said, the best solution is really to only let conglutination mitigate experience loss while allowing the defenses for lich, dark rebirth, and transmigration be raised with the loss of defenses but no essence loss. It is the cleanest and honestly most fair solution across the board.

Oh believe me, I do realize trueheal can help you escape and it's best used to escape groups. At least for moi. Only most times, I don't have the power to do it. I felt that Derian was implying that somehow, TH prevented experience/essence loss in the way lichdom did.

In... a very, very roundabout way it does. Kind of. I can see where he's coming from, but I can't really agree with it. It has that potential, but far less so than Lich does. I don't believe the comparison is valid.

Divinefire is freakin' ridiculous.

It's a lot easier to kill a Demigod who divine fires, suprisingly, than one who liches. Trueheal is a much much weaker version of divine fire.

Hm. I'd have to disagree. It's a lot easier to kill a lich, since they have to die to actually use lich.

But yes, it's harder to kill a lich a second time than it is to kill a truehealer the first time (generally! There are, as usual, exceptions), and I believe that's what I said.

Dark Rebirth already has an option to get the defence for 75carrion instead of dying, by the way. However, could you clarify your second paragraph-- are you talking about experience, or essence? Transmigration also has no defences at all. All it does is revive you with no experience loss.

Divinefire is freakin' ridiculous.

There are ways around it.

Don't you get the Dark Spirit only when you die?

And Transmigration has no other bonus than the long-range-rezz, I fear. <.<

There were ways around springtraps too, but it didn't stop people from saying they were ridiculous, and changing them. -shrug-

The only ridiculous part was that it first didn't check summon resistance. Was there another change?