Before, you could have walked onto Nil or Celestia and been springtrapped into the Nexus. How could I get there to icewall beforehand? Are you saying this was fair? It's much more reasonable to have them be checked by summon resistance. I was sprung a few rooms just days ago.

This is rather off topic, though.

If lichdom is death, then it should cost experience for everyone, give experience to the killer, and gain Avechna's protection. If we agree that lich is death, then those things should be instituted, and lich should be upgraded to make up for it.

I think my point is being horribly convoluted, so let me try one more time. Can you think of any situation in which lich would allow the person to escape without losing essence, but trueheal could not do the same thing? With lich, the person "dies" without losing anything, then escapes without losing anything. With trueheal, the person gets to the point where they are on the verge of dying (to the point where they could not be saved by any other means), they heal, and escape without losing anything. They are far from the same skill, but they lead to the same result. If you are saying that lich is a problem because it allows the demigod to escape a certain death without any loss.



It is interesting that you keep saying this, and yet you have not responded to my actual points. I would ask you the same thing I asked Malicia above - can you think of any situation where lich is a problem for demigods but trueheal would not pose the exact same problem?



Anyone dying without experience loss is not and should not be the norm. However, there are some skills that allow it, which I agree is a problem. I think the problem with this thread is that it is too focused. It sounds like people from Celest looking around and seeing everyone else with a toy they don't have, and finding a way to complain about it. Every org basically has experience loss immunity - I agree that this is a problem and would actually like to see all rezz skills removed. However, to say that these skills should all be made absolutely worthless for demigods while still functioning to protect everyone else from any loss...how does that make sense?

On a related note, this brings up a new problem...if these skills no longer protect from essence loss, what good are they? That basically means that once a person reaches demigod their transcendent skills become completely useless, or (in the case of lich) even counter-productive since there's a good chance you will die twice. Would anything be added to make up for this problem, or does it also seem okay to just take away these transcendent skills for demigods even though they apply and are powerful for everyone else?

You are engaging in pettifogerry. Trueheal, tumbling away, using a cubix, havening out, or any other method that you might use to avoid dying has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. Arguing points that are irrelevant is a waste of time but here is an example of your theory put into actual practice by people who are, you know demigods, and have the skills in question. I was on Nil facing a group of people, I truehealed, I immediately died to a telepath. I lost 100,000 essence. Ixion was on prime, facing a group of Celestians, he died, ran into the Sea of Despair as a soul, lost nothing. It is not the same.

I say you have not read the thread because you state it is a thread about Celestians complaining about wanting a nerf to lich when if you had READ the thread that would have been made clear that it was obviously not the case given there are people from multiple organizations who feel essence should be lost the same across the board for all demigods and it was stated several times that lich was probably the least of the problems given the nature of it while transmigration was the worst of them.

Trueheal has nothing to do with it. Experience loss has nothing to do with it. How the skills work for non-demigods has nothing to do with it. I am starting to get the impression that you are engaging in this sort of debate simply to try to draw attention from the very clear points and arguments that were made earlier in the thread. So I will follow Malicia's example and simply stop responding to you.

*just got back from school*

Holy :censor:, this topic is STILL going on? >_>

Technically it is just Derian being Derian. It should stop as soon as we all stop trying to argue with him.

It does appear that the vast majority agree that demigod deaths should always lead to essence loss with conglutination being the only method of mitigating that. It'd be great if the various defenses could also be gained (at a loss of any regular defenses a person has) without having to lose essence to do so. Other than that, seems it is only a very small minority whom believes otherwise.

I think this is generally agreed-upon, but it's not the whole story, and you may as well fix the whole problem instead of just half of it.

I will try one last time. I consider myself to be a pretty logical person, and I like to consider things on a point-by-point basis, but when you keep repeating "I'm right and you're wrong" over and over again, there's only so far we can progress.

1. Your example doesn't really demonstrate anything. If Ixion escaped as a lich, it simply means they were not prepared. If you did not escape, it simply means they were prepared - in groups, I will admit it is much easier to get away as a lich. None of that relates to the point, though: can you think of a hypothetical situation where lich would allow someone to escape but trueheal would not?

2. I agree with these "clear" points you are talking about. Essence loss should be normalized across the board - as should experience loss. Things like lich, darkrebirth, transmigration, sacrifice, resurrect, resurgem, and all of the similar abilities should be completely removed in my opinion. Of course, I would still argue that this would leave trueheal as a problem, since it is basically a way to escape from otherwise certain death in 1-on-1 fights, accomplishing the same thing as lich (which is my point above).

3. The problelm is you are localizing your argument. You are saying that essence loss should be the same for everyone because essence is different than experience. This is a main point of your argument; however it is simply wrong. Mechanically, they are the exact same thing. There is even a perfect conversion for what 10 essence is worth in experience % at each given level. They are the same number, they have the same results.

4. This thread was brought up because people that Celestians don't like were not losing demigod like you want them to - that was the point of my Celestian comment. I read comments similar to "there are at least two people who I didn't want to get to demigod, but now they got there and they keep it because of lich" which imply that this is simply a personal vendetta rather than a logically thought-out case.

5. Again, I agree overall, I just think you are limiting it far too much. Sure, lich needs to be fixed up. So does trueheal. So do resurrect and sacrifice. So does resurgem. They are all problems, and we all know it - what exactly is this thread hoping to accomplish by making certain demigods weaker while ignoring the real issue? Is it just so those people you don't like will go back to titan again and make people feel happy?

I have nothing to offer on the topic since I am and not likely to ever be a demigod, but I just want to clarify something.

A majority (and not a vast one either) has not spoken or decided anything. A loud minority has come to a conclusion which Derian disagrees with. It is obvious this minority are Celestian and any claim it is a majority held view is a fallacy when most people don't care that much. The fact only Ildaudid and Derian really bothered to try defending Lich is evidence of this and limited Glomdoring imput shows this is something that only Celest feel is an issue, although maybe certain Serenwilders too. So please avoid saying it is a majority held view, as has probably been incorrectly claimed on many anti-lich threads. It is also quite relevant that Magnagora has barely any Demigods while Celest has 5+ active ones, but I don't see why this is such an issue when its basically targeted at Ixion, who Celest has a pet hate for and isn't a reason in itself for change.

Edit: Okay did comment, but this thread is so pointless.

Morning, yeah it is off topic (my bad) so I won't take up too much.
There were ways to stop it Forren, not all of them were just icewalls. Was it fair? IMO? hell no. Did they go a little overboard on the checks to see if the trap actually worked? I think just a little. The chances of being sprung a few rooms are astronomically small, and you got luck/unlucky when it happened. Now I don't mind the way they are, I deal with it, and I was never a real big springtrap guy, so no real skin off my back. I guess we could have used greaterpent as another example instead of springtraps, in which there are ways around them, and yet people did complain alot and got it changed.
/hijack

Xenthos' Breakdown by Organization:
New Celest: "It is unfair that Demigods from a couple of the organizations lose no essence, since essence is a precious resource for a Demigod's existance."
Serenwilde: "It is unfair that anybody have these skills at all! Nerf!"
Magnagora: "But, but... Lich is fine! It can be stopped. And look at Trueheal!" <-- the Lich Defense.
Glomdoring: "All of the other organizations' names line up perfectly in the edit window. Ours is longer! We must be better!"

Damn straight.

Glomdoring - Pwning word wrap since 542 I.E.

When you put it that way, clearly the Serenwilde is the most logical.

Seren wins, nerf everything, and rename the other forest to the Longboring.

Wtf. It's two diffrent times of two entirely different coolnesses.

Fixed that for you! 1 dollar please.

I am the Serenwilde, haven't you heard?

Also, I think Nejii might be placed in that camp too, but I'm not sure he agrees on everything I say. For that matter, I can quote plenty of people who think rezz abilities should be removed, but that's beside the point.

Revan's totally pwns yours. On the plus side, 134 should be out tonight!

...

?

144 was released yesterday nub.

shh I just noticed it and watched it.

Derian's still Mag.

Just a little leaf-happier.