After a few days of thinking on this, pitching it to friends who both play and do not play Lusternia (but grasp IRE mechanics rather well), I have finally come to the conclusion that I am ready to share a tiny bit of an idea to you all. This comes both from my ranting in a previous thread and just my general observation on how PvP-based conflict has always evolved. I have, however, also taken provisions to ensure that other people who do enjoy PK will always have a jolly time with this little system. I will admit right now that I am inspired by many previous ideas in IRE (and I am sadly reminded of a time when landmarking in Achaea was almost cool, but I think this is much more refined, and while it draws one or two traits from it.. it is not landmarking).

For a while, I sat down and recognized the objectives I wanted to reach and succeed in here:

• A way for people who enjoy combat to play their type of game.
• A way for people who enjoy bashing to play their type of game.
• A way for people who enjoy Influence to play their type of game.
• A way for people who enjoy quests to enjoy their type of game.
• A way to bring all of these people together in to one unified objective that does not obliterate their roleplay by forcing interaction.
• A way to make a visible victory without demoralizing the rest of the world.
• A way to encourage people to support their organization instead of sitting twiddling their thumbs.
• An objective everybody will enjoy.

That is quite a daunting list, I think. However, with the help of two people.. I happened to get two very different insights as to how this concept would play out in some smooth way. My idea may sound like a sort of messy affair at first, but it'll clear up at first. I'd like everybody to just go through it thoroughly or just attentively before they offer suggestions - I'd love suggestions though, feel free to add them.

Imagine, for a moment, a monument located by members of the Basin. This monument was previously forgotten or was omitted from records or texts for some reason. Upon discovery, information from local scholars insist that the monument was dedicated to a skilled Planar expert who studied the flow of and accumulation of power as his main field of study. Regardless of the figure (it could be anybody, honestly, that was just a flavor detail for me). Regardless, after a bit the monument 'awakens' - and this is the drastic part. I would like all of you to keep an open-mind, I cannot stress this enough: the monument steals a portion of the power in each nexus in the world that is currently active. This portion is not gigantic. In fact, it is more of a drop in the bucket for every nexus than anything severe (however, the Administration can make it as seriously large as they like).

Regardless, this monument acts as sort of a sponge for this power. It contains it and the conflict around it immediately comes in to play. This conflict is based off of a 'point system', so to speak. The points can be gained by PK, Influence, Bashing, Questing, and other sources of play style. You could obviously view these scores and other things later touched on in this topic via commands.

The area that actually contains the monument should become a hot spot for PK - in this area, kills against an organization earn the 'winning player' organization one point. This death is only between player versus player combat - to supplement this, no mobiles that are feral or automatically aggressive will be in the area. This prevents the system from being abused via dying to a mobile in the last minute. Heartstop does not work in this area, and triggering vitae counts as a kill for the purposes of earning points but not for losing them (I previously had the idea to prevent vitae entirely from working, but it seemed a little too harsh). Player conflict here, obviously, becomes immediately important when it comes to the topic of combat of two people. That, in my opinion, takes care of the players who love PK. Also, in my opinion, these death points should scale with level - destroying a Demigod or Titan should gain much more points then killing a level forty-five player who has no clue what he's doing alone. It gives a visible structuring of the typically tanky, unstoppable people being the ones you get the big points from. This area, obviously, falls outside of Avechna's influence.

Next, a secondary and possibly tertiary area need to be set up to allow the bashing of certain mobiles and the Influencing of various. These mobiles could be walking shadows of servants or caretakers of the monument. They could drop essence that could be invested in to points for the monument. The mobiles would also yield karma and experience - thus granting the people taking time to help their organization the convenience of not having to drop their bashing 'schedule'. They can continue hunting, killing mobs, etc.. while also protecting their city. This, in my opinion, gives another branch of players a way to help in this struggle.

In this area or these areas, several mobiles could exist who are Influence-able and also dole out quests to gain you points. For my example, the monument scholars who helped identify it could then be Influenced constantly to grant your organization the equivalent of capturing a flag - a steady, small stream of points. These mobiles could also hand out quests to obtain certain materials they can then convert in to essence to be turned in to the monument for more points for you. This similarly gives the questing, Influence-users a way to have some part in this system. Obviously, like the players who bash.. these quests would yield karma and experience. It could also yield gold.

Now, you're likely wondering to yourself: "This only allows for one winner and three losers so far. That sounds a little dumb."

This has been solved. The combined suggestions of my two conspirators and my obvious admission that losing sucks has resulted in a good system here:

The 'game' conflict should work off of a fairly simple in/out return system. However much effort your organization puts in to this monument conflict, the more of a return you get. Everybody who gains at least one point will experience a regain of power in their nexus. The highest scoring person will obviously not only break even but gain a small portion of this sapped power. I am not sure what the cut off point should be, but it should be fairly achievable with effort - thus allowing organizations who aren't too interested in winning to just break even and leave it at that. The score could be based on a fighting percentage - however much points you have, the more weight you get with getting power from the pool of 'stolen' power from every nexus. A small portion, in my opinion, should simply dissipate from the pool. It would deflate the vast sea of power we have in the game thus far, and I can come up with a rational explanation how.

This 'destroyed' power could become a fuel, so to speak, to bestow a benefit on the top winning organization (thus showing a true clear cut victory).. and it would also be able to bestow personal rewards on the top people of every bracket. For instance, the person who earned the largest amount of points for his organization in PK would get a reward (even if his org didn't place first in the overall scoring) - the same goes for Influence, Bashing, and Questing. I believe with that, it would add a true level of competition between all players - a sort of 'who is the big badass in this type of competition' element. Obviously, this part could be entirely nixed - but it's further incentive to participate. These benefits to cities should be general bonuses everybody would find nice (a small portion of EXP boost, a batch of karma) - and the benefits to individuals should play in to what they won. An influencer, for instance, doesn't need +5% damage or something inane like that.

This obviously sounds like a tedious concept if it went on forever and ever and ever. This is not a one time shot conflict. No, instead, this is programmed to happen once or twice every IC year. It should be random months per year, but hard set not to happen two days in a row. The monument could either still drain between dead months (to create a bigger pool for a much more threateningly large prize or loss).. or just drain a set amount at the start. I would prefer the first, and have the end reward be weighted accordingly.

Now, this system seems to satisfy some of my objectives:

The PK people get to run about the monument primary area and kill other players to earn points. I think that sounds fun - PKers get to do what they like, and help their organization along the way.



The bashing people get to kill mobiles, earn experience, earn gold, earn karma.. and still get points for their org. I think that sounds fair, and if they like bashing.. more power to them for it. They may get a kick out of this.

Influence to help your organization.. that sounds pretty important, especially because I introduced a specific element to how their point gains work. I would like to think that as Influence is showcased as a unique form of Lusternian 'conflict', it should also play an important place in this objective-based event.



The quests to gather materials, pieces, or items also satisfies people who like to quest - I hope. They can gain possibly large point returns depending on quest difficulty.

In my opinion, I did this elegantly by saying that everybody is fighting in their own way for their organization. However, I believe the system could do with a way to intermingle all point-gaining potentials.



Everybody experiences a return - anybody who fails to gain points through themselves are obviously inactive organizations or just sorely need large levels of help. There is obviously a visible victory, but with the potential safety net implemented in the system for the ability to break even through effort.. there is no real 'loser' who gets nothing in the end.

This one is a little more difficult. You cannot force anybody to do anything in Lusternia - but with the possibility of a negative repercussion.. it may get people up off their asses. I don't know, maybe this objective was poorly satisfied. I'll think on ways to encourage it.



That is up to you. I hope your feedback is extensive and answers this question. This is on paper, there are no numbers to argue, there is only a possibility for positive or negative feedback. I welcome both, plus tweaking and suggestions to refine it.

This is the main issue I have with your idea. The admin have moved time and time again to remove conflict quests and tone down conflict, which something that actively hurts your organization as a whole qualifies as. Anything which hurts your organization means that your organization will try to *require* you to participate. This causes many people to feel anger, or frustration, or simply just type QQ, which is undesired.

I don't know. There are a lot of people who would like a reason to do things-- but there are also a lot of people who just want to do their own thing, which this really doesn't take into account at all.

I have the feeling if it went in, it'd get nerfed to oblivion within a month, mostly for this reason.

Yeah.. I think one reason village revolts and wild nodes are so popular and enjoyable is that you can only gain. You're not losing anything but power (and maybe commodities) if you lose a village/wild node event.

That's why I'd like to see people's input on it so it doesn't feel like they're obligated to participate - moreso, they're rewarded in some way and will keep coming back and cities won't have to enforce a law to keep people in. Maybe I'm thinking too narrow here.. the system does not take in to account that some people want to not do things.. but honestly, it also sort of does. My idea would be that a handful of very active and motivated people could get their organization to break even - thus negating any losses.

I'm just not sure how it could work. Any suggestions?

Do -you- feel you'd participate if it was refined in to a feasible, game system for Lusternia? Or would you simply blow it off or feel obligated to participate so your organization doesn't lose all of their power or something?



I think there has to be some risk involved to really feel like a victory - I may be wrong, though. There has to be a way for an organization to feel like they really were the winners there - maybe not by hurting another organization, but by coming out on top. In my opinion, by winning power that wasn't theirs (or a portion of it, or a larger cut of the pie over another organization), there was a real visible win there. Perhaps if nobody lost power but the monument 'generated' a portion of power that was then fought over?

I don't think there is an issue, the problem is simply overblown. 5% of the players go "waaah, too much conflict!', other 5% go "waah, not enough conflict!", while the 90% that's left will simply go out and enjoy one of the best, if not the best, MUD on the Internet.

I'm talking about Lusternia. That's this game. Here. The one on whose (can you write "whose" for non-living objects?) forums I'm posting on.

So, a fair attempt and a good idea (but could use some polish here and there), but still an effort wasted - you can't satisfy one of the 5% groups without the other throwing a temper tantrum.

EDIT: Power as a reward isn't a good one. There's simply too much of it, all nexuses are overflowing. Take a look at Gaudiguch/Hallifax quest - it is done only sporadically. If power was more precious, people would do that over and over.

That's kind of my point. Some days, I'd love to participate. Other days... I would feel like I have to, and I'd just be frustrated. It's a random time, so it very well could come up during something that's more "important" to either you or your character, and would have to be dropped.

You're right, if there's no real risk, some people won't care so much about it. But then, those are the people who would mostly be frustrated by being forced to participate, anyways.

By the way-- did you see my suggestion in the Conflict thread? It was kind of similar to your amended proposal, but the main point of it was that it could be done *any* time, and not at specific times (so if I log on and feel like conflict that day, I have an outlet).

I'd suggest trying to rework the proposal in that direction. I don't believe Lusternia needs any more sporadic conflict events.

I think this idea would be great, however again, the ssue comes from people feeling "forced" to do it. I don't like the idea of taking away the negative effects, but perhaps make it not so detrimental? I would love to see this implemented as I think it would be very fun for all players.

I personally agree, but there is no other city-wide reward that people wouldn't whine over that I've heard. It is partially why I suggested 'some power is taken away, with the potential to permanently lose some, and already losing some anyways'.



I was considering saying 'it is a set day, a set time'. I was also considering saying 'it is every day'. However, the people I asked said either 'a set time? it needs to be random' or 'every day? that is way too much!'. I didn't see your suggestion, no, but I'll take a look.

Thanks. I think being 'forced' to do it is a problem all suggestions in all games have to face - my fix would be to lessen the threat of the event but not remove it entirely. I would like to see this event encourage conflict while deflating the massive amount of power - both of these things contributing to returning the concept of power as a precious and dangerously low or limited resource.

How would you change it to be less a 'forced' issue, if not take away that negative aspect? What if it was a better source of reward for Influencing people, Bashing people, and Questing people instead of just normal crap they do every day?

I think the actual temptation and potential of Prime or Off Plane conflict and combat is enough to tempt PKers - maybe I'm wrong, though?

How about commodities as quest reward?

Like, as a reward for victory? That sounds interesting - what kind of commodities are we talking? The big expensive ones that everybody wants, or a trail mix of useless and awesome?


EDIT: What if it was similar to a village - there is only one victor/controller. The reward? They get a benefit to their commodity flow (a percentage faster, maybe)?

I saw too many newbies get enemied to Serenwilde/Magnagora/whomever controls Acknor or Estelbar for abducting furrikin to farm worthless vegetables or grain to propose worthless commodities. It could be a mix, but I'm thinking about the useful ones, like metals, wood or silk.

That was the crunch, now the fluff: It could be a cache of a big group of raiders/thieves, who were stealing commodities from villages in a very sneaky way (it's just an explanation, they don't actually lower the villages' production! Ergo, no waste for not participating). To get the comms from the cache, people from orgs would have to kill these raiders, thieves or whomever, or influence them to abandon their wicked ways and give back what they have stolen, or kill each other (scoring points to the raider's leader who respects strength and therefore would reward the players' orgs with commodities), or any other activity we can think of that makes sense and would allow a wide range of players to participate.

I like this idea more than my attempt to redefine power. In fact, it addresses a few more problems. I think this could be a very, very viable reward for the system. In fact, I like it - and your fluff could be steadily adjusted to work in any way.

Go read "Designing Virtual Worlds" by Richard Bartle, and then re-read your thread.

And if that quote in your signature is real, that's hilarious.

That sounds like an interesting read. Does what I say here clash heavily with what Bartle says?

Also, it is a very, very real quote.

The quote is real, but it left off the explanation and context. In any case, it was pretty funny.

Back to the point, I like the idea behind this. The problem, as has been mentioned, is that organizations are penalized for doing nothing. The goal should be for something to be risked, but for those organizations that do not wish to participate to be able to avoid it. One problem that has come up for Lusternia in the past is the size of our organizations. The larger organizations (Serenwilde, Celest) would always win this, while the smaller organizations (Magnagora, Glomdoring) would probably end up losing power, just because they don't have as many people to compete.

I could imagine an adaptation of this idea which could be used for organizational wars. For example, instead of this statue just appearing, perhaps Serenwilde becomes so angry with Magnagora that they beseech Avechna for help. A messenger is sent to Magnagora to issue the challenge. Magnagora could either accept or refuse. If they accept, an adaptation of this idea could come into play. A certain area would be designated as a war arena, and other areas designed for quests/influencing/bashing/etc.. I could imagine these all being the same area (forcing teams to work together with the fighters keeping the team safe while others went about their tasks) or being all different areas so individuals could compete. If they refuse, Seren could just resort to raiding Nil/etc like we do now.

Needless to say, Seren and Mag are just examples, it would work for anyone. Both organizations would have to donate power/commodities/etc. to Avechna for him to build the war arena, then at the end the victor could take the spoils.

The problem with this idea is that individuals can't really do much unless their organization wants to participate. If I lived in Seren and Seren always refused a war, I'd be stuck back in the situation I am in now, where I'd have to just raid on my own. That still isn't a huge problem, though, I get out enough and kill people enough to keep me happy when I'm active.

I'd prefer the spontaneous effect of the event to be preserved, including all four organizations. Like I said, power was used as a big example - but if people want to not do it, I'm sure we can find a 'rewards only' system that simply feels like a nice, big conflict where people clearly win or lose.

I do like your idea, and perhaps the two could mix. The problem is finding what people will be willing to always do and to find a way to make it feel like it's a real conflict and not just an arena event outside of an arena. I'm challenged on how to do this, and I included 'there is a risk here' as this defining trait.

I know!

Let's have eight or ten monuments (call them "landmarks") dotted around Prime. Every IG year, due to some sort of astral alignment, these "landmarks" become active and you can perform short simple quests to sway them towards your organisation. They'll only be active for say, 6 or 12 hours each time, and in between these times the organisation with the most "landmarks" in their favour gets a bonus (let's say, 75% damage reduction from all sources?), while every player in the other three orgs loses their highest ability in each guild skill.

Thoughts?

Can my quest revolve around killing things and catching the blood in a bucket?

Please say yes!

Oooh, and let's FORCE everyone to participate! And if the littlest most clueless novice gets lost and dies to an aggro mob we can yell at him for not participating and put him on probation!

Yay for nostalgia!