1. Focus mind
Focus mind is really amazing. I dunno the changes that they say caused it to be just 'nice' but i personally found it to be very very useful. Really helps in avoiding locks. It cant cure everything of course but every little bit helps.

2. Weapon parry
It is what level again? I cant remember but what i do remember is that i stopped putting lessons in combat a while back when i was in gifted. It doest seem to do anything. But then out of curioisty, i up it into Virtuoso/fabled? and the difference in parry rate is staggering. the very first spar against a monk after that was like "whoaah". like night and day really.

3. Tumble
They say one needs this, but personally ive tried not to run away from a room. I should run away more really, but meh. running sucks so im avoiding getting tumble purposely.

As for speaking to other people
getting good advice is ncessary of course, but combat is something that one has to experience really. ive bugged forren and narsrim and they tell me stuff, then it just floats away. but after i fight a few times, i sometimes go zomg! so this is what they were talking about! I needed to experience it before i understand

(back then, I died so much that someone from another community sent me a message asking if im masochistic.. hehe.. its really slow for me too.. but little by little you pick up things.. each death brings a new lessons.. and one day you start killing people too. -- i hope )

How to kill people as a tarot Celestine in a few easy steps:

1. Put up fool, enigma, wrathed angel on anorexia/stupidity. KEEP YOUR ANGEL ON PASSIVE AND DO NOT FLING ANY TAROT CARDS YET.
2. Rub soulless on target x7. Shield or web or whatever as necessary to stay alive here.
3. Chant carcer, fling fall. (Actually, carcer the adjacent rooms too, if possible.)
4. Order angel aggressive, fling hangedman, then aeon x2, preferably timed with your angel so they have aeon/anorexia/stupidity.
5. Heretic, web/hangedman or aeon/aeon here to keep them down until the second glow, then infidel.
6. Web again, then inquisition on the glow.
7. Fling soulless.
8. ???
9. Profit!

(Disclaimer: I haven't played a Celestine in a while, but this is roughly what I used when I was one. It requires coordination, skill, and timing to do properly; in other words, mileage not guaranteed. Tweak to preference.)

I know that "blah blah skilled people can overcome this" but I hate how aeon/soulless is almost required for Celestine comment.

I've never seen aeon used effectively in Celestine combat. I see mostly vapors/paralysis and heretic over and over until the opponent just throws his hand up and says FINE, I'LL TANK INQUISITION...and then dies.

Plus side? They farking IMPOSSIBLE to kill if they have decent curing and manage power well

Oh? They seem about as hard to kill as Nihilists, really. Things like Starleaper are amazing if you get low.

Ok Saaga, straight off, the people who say this to you, well they are retarded. You are of use. If Yevah, Talkan and Alodia said "then you will be of use", just tell them to off. Or actually just only deal with them when you have to.

You are not useless, even a novice can get a web enchantment and web in a group attack. But I would talk to Ethelon about upgrading your system some. I think he has certain updates to stack on that 25cr one that will help you alot more. If you want to fight well as a Celestine, you need to talk to people like Clise, Geb, Shamarah, Acrune, and Thoros (I would say Amaru too, but he isn't around much). I don't know if Geb was ever a Celestine, but I know he has enough basic knowledge of how to make Sacraments work well. Clise may not seem like she is the uber fighter of the Celestines, but trust me, the girl knows how combat works and is very very knowledgeable on things that would help you along. Shamarah was one of the best Celestines I have seen, along with Thoros and they both know how easy it is to pull off some things, due to getting your timing down. (When people say that they cant pull an Inquisition, I know both these 2 have never had problems doing them.) Also Acrune was a good Celestine, he hasn't been one in a while, but I am sure he can remember some things.

Trans skills help, but there used to be a Nihilist by the name of Torak, who may have been max tri trans, if that with his character and would kill the "top tier" fighters with no problem. Again, it is all about, well for a Celestine, timing and the proper investing of your angel.

Do not fret, do not feel like you do not do much for your guild. Push on, and ask the right people for help. And you will do fine.

edited- so people don't have their ego's bruised -sorry-

Can't you try to offer constructive advice without letting your ic bias/hatred show?

Anyhow, Saaga all I can say is that you should focus on timing. It may seem a bit annoying at first, but it's simple. Time your flings just after the angel hits and have a goal in mind. Shamarah's little outline is good to go with too. Make sure you have a decent curing system also. Look into Palisade, perhaps. I've heard good things about it. Talkan is always willing to help out, if you want to ask. You might want to study Celestine combat logs for tips too, spammy though they may be. There's a Talkan vs Thoros log in the combat section, I think.

What are you talking about, it is not hatred, I am speaking the truth. Should I sugar coat it and tell Saaga that she is surrounded by the best damn Celestines ever seen in Lusternia? Why would I lie to her? Apparantly these people who she has already asked for help have brushed her off, so me pointing her in the right direction of people who truly understand Celestine combat is the right thing to do. Sorry if in doing so I am bruising someone else (who blew her off's) ego.

The fact remains this: If Amaru were around, and had the time to teach you, I would tell you to ask him for help. Soon, I would say ask Myndaen for help, but he is still perfecting his own combat techniques at the moment, but I do feel he is one of the better ones in the guild. Other than that, right now, there just aren't any Great Celestine fighters out there. Sure any group of 2 Celestines can pretty much do great things if they time off each other, but we are talking about solo combat.

It really irks me that in me giving solid advice, you somehow make it into it being non-constructive. Maybe Malicia you should reread what I wrote. -now shoo-

You don't know what you're talking about. You're insulting Talkan when all she's asking for is some advice. You could have left out the part about him. Secondly, Amaru hated teaching, hated novices and shunned most people that asked for help, unless they were going to pay ridiculous amounts of credits for his system. Anyhow. I didn't say anything about any advice you gave her. Just your ranting about Talkan and how he fights as a Champion.

You should talk to me, I can help at least some. I used to use tarot, and can flesh out some of the things in the seminary. Aison is good with the soulless, from what I've seen in the few spars I've had with her. If nothing else, I can cure decently, so you can use me as a target for soulless as you work out the details.

edited above so there is no bruising of egos.

Ildaudid your post is ridiculous.

On to an actual post.

Saaga, if you'll ask Talkan in the game for actual tips, he'll give them. He's always happy to help, as anyone can tell you. I've got tactics for using absolve, judge, and inquisition, depending on your preference.
Of course soulless is a little more sure, but it's not 100% as some people would have you believe, even after an inquisition, but I've killed Daevos and Ethelon unsurged with absolve without ever being hit, and its been a long time since I've killed anyone with judge, but I remember doing it to ildaudid when it was my only instakills in a duel, and I think Ciaran as well, so it's viable, but I really wouldn't recommend it. Anyway, give talkan a holler in the game!

Of course you would think my post of actually helping people is ridiculous son, but that is to be expected from you.

Anyways, she said she asked you all and ended up with those responses she said earlier. I am glad that you are finally willing to help her.

Stop this ridiculous snarky comment war. The next person to start stalking people around the forums in random topics with bizarre nonsense will not be happy, regardless of whether they put actual relevant opinions in there too.

On with the useful advice!

EDIT: I will forgive Talkan's post below on the basis that he was probably still writing it as I posted this. No more though!

Actually, she never said that I gave her that response. In fact, she asked me today if she could go raiding with me and I told her I'd be happy to take her when I go. Unfortunately, she wasn't around when I went. So please please please please please don't speak as if you know what was spoken between us, ok? Awesome, thanks.

*stalks & snarks*

That does sound very Talkan-esque.

Don't learn from Aison unless you are looking for a FLY trigger for every attack. Talkan, while a general...let's just go with unhappy person...seems to do pretty well for himself. I'd take some pointers from him, just don't take it as the gospel. Talk to Thoros too. He's very helpful and awesome.

Y'all.

Instead of making this a fighting thread -I mean one that we will end up feasting off eachothers' heads - I could really use some advice -and have gotten some.

Still could do with more though.

I guess I'll need to spar more and practice after practice, but I guess that's what has to be done.

I think the best way to actually enjoy combat is first, you've gotta detach yourself from your experience. The best combat comes in real fights. Fights outside the arena (generally). While you don't have to completely hate experience, it's just something you've gotta be okay with losing. This is mostly for people who just want to get involved, be helpful and such. People who like fighting to see who has the better skills and tactics vs another person will enjoy this sparring as well. Anyways, you really don't need to trans skills so much as be willing to participate. Encourage or ask for raids, ask to join, ask to join the Dawn Brigade. Go on some raids. You also need to be able to handle yelling. Every leader of any raid will yell at you when you mess up, but just accept it and try to remember not ot make it again later. The yelling just happens from emphasis or frustration, but we all do it whenever we're leading.

The second key is knowning your own character's skills. Know how to use them, what they're good for. Since Celestines are typically a hindering class, that will generally be your goal. You'll have to judge this based on the situation. If you're the only Celestine, then you'll be hindering the target, if there's multiple, you can try something else so that you don't end up giving the same afflictions and just wasting your movements. It's really something you just gain by experience. I find a lot of people enjoy the chaos of it all, especially if they live. It's best if you enjoy it even when you die. That's really the ultimate goal. You need to find a way that you enjoy fighting, no matter what happens in that situation. Wow I'm not sure I said anything helpful and my comments are in so many directions so I'll just stop now. But if you're just looking to have fun with combat, then spar people around your might and try that. Also try raids and see which type of conflict you actually enjoy. Go from there.

GRUMBLEGRUMBLEGRUMBLE

GRR GRR GRR

I don't -want- to change class, since I really like the Celestine RP and have worked hard getting on GR5,

BUT

I very much seem to fail utterly and miserably in combat, still. Getting focusmind was harder than I thought; heck, even a runnersup in bardics did not still get me that far, now I have to wait and see another month if I could win something.

Nezha's been helping me with his system a lot, though.

Also I don't even seem to enjoy Celestine combat that much. RP versus boredom and frustration.