Alright.

Following the last forging discussion thread, where the merits of various aspects of forging were discussed ad nauseam, I used ISSUE ME to clarify the admin's viewpoint of what was acceptable in terms of 'AFK forging', or, the common practice of writing a zMUD script to forge until a given statistic was reached.

This is the response I got back.

To refresh peoples' minds, here's the pertinent bits of HELP AUTOMATION:



Now, this might seem unimportant at first.

However, knight combat, I think it's fair to say, is tuned and balanced by the envoys based on the assumption that the weapons and armour used are in the top 5% of the possible stats, if not higher. This equates to hours of forging, for EVERY warrior, simply to operate on the level that the game is meant to...and the weapons and armour used decay. In fact, with the changes to repair, as armour decays, its max repairability drops, meaning that there is a point where you don't bother repairing, and just begin the reforging process again.

Is it fair to expect people forging to spend 20+ hours of actual, 'at keyboard' time, to manufacture a weapon, just so they can play the game in a balanced fashion? I honestly don't think so, and in fact, it's a huge, huge disincentive to become a knight. As I discussed elsewhere, a simple set of equipment (one (or two) swords, helm, fieldplate) requires between 360-445 metal commodities - the lowest possible price for such a set as I write this is 45k and 55,625 gold, and is likely to be around twice that in 'real' terms given the designs available.

What are other people's thoughts on this?

I think its a bit unfair that for a warrior to be effective or even hope to stand some chance that these "5%" weapons are needed, sadly this is the case.
that said, this yes, does require hours/days/weeks worth of forging for a single given item, and then still run the risk of deleting because of using a script?
This is a little , how shall I put, bollocks!

Now, I don't want to see forging changed into how some other IRE realms have gone, where the whole forging process, whatever you forge is a matter of 2 - 3 actions,
I found this to be terrible as it then detracts from the value of the item, or even the sense of achievement when that perfect stated weapon/armor/helm finally comes around.

Something need to be done or taken into consideration, either a little slack on the AFK policy when it comes to forging, else, make all weapons single stat (which will ruin everything or even the reason to actually be a forger)

Perhaps something along the lines of, skill+ (time as forger) + comms needed/used + (if hammer) allow you to consistently forge weapons within this 5% bracket, the thinking being, freshly trained forgers would not then have the experience of many year as a forger to consistently produce high quality weapons, also, with the choice of comms used on a design, more metals, better refine option or harder metals have a better edge, lighter metals more speed, something like that. so a choice of metals would be more important in the design phase based on the type of weapon you are seeking.

rough idea really, could be worthwhile?

I think it would be fair to cut down on the number of hits it takes to create the item, if not to also then refine it. The number of lesson texts was reduced from eight to five (from other IRE games to Lusternia, that is), so why not reduce forging hammer hits, too?

The AFK policy is a good thing, though, and if you're going to "slave" away at the forge for days on end, you should at least be semi-paying attention. Put a "bell on your tell" and respond when someone tries to ask you a question, eh? I've had several times when people in my guild were just zombies... and that's not always forgers, but a good percentage of the time it is.

If they do decide to enforce it the vast, vast majority of the forging population will sprout leaves.

Yeah..

That said, I think they understand the dilemma.

I hate to say it... But some things are best left unsaid, Caedryn. When you bring attention to something that everyone looks the other way for, it forces an action. Ignorance is bliss, as they say, and for something like this I think the admin would have had no problem turning the other cheek... However now that it has been brought to their attention, can they really continue to be ignorant?

I don't know, I hope so... I think that AFK forging is fine if it's so hard to get these stats; it's unrealistic to expect a player to be there for 20 hours in-game, and it's unrealistic to expect the players not to want the best.

I have to agree with Myndaen here, they normally look the other way, especially if you are in your own forge and away from one that others may use. Now, when I forged, I would sit for hours on end forging, watch tv and other things, but when I went to sleep, I always turned it off. So I considered it fine, since I was never too far from my computer. I hope they don't try to enforce this though, since honestly, there will be a shortage of good weapons and alot of leafy forgers.

It is extremely unrealistic to expect anyone to sit around and forge for 20 hours or more and literally sit at their computer for all of that.

If you're posting in these forums while logged in, you're totally AFK, better practice your rustling.

I would totally envoy a suggestion to reduce the amount of forgings needed per item, or maybe even go so far as to ask for a linear set of stats for forging. (More time = better stats, no more randomness).

Which is why the forgers all have the unwritten rule of: Set up the autoforger, troll forums, read a book, watch tv, then when you comp beeps. It has a forge with stats you should look at



Yeah, but as forgers who are used to forging 20 hours, they will just forge 20 hours (with the more time=better stats thing) and end up with even better weapons (Which would be cool!)

The few times I've been afk and forging, and got noticed, I have lost the weapon I was working on, or I got d/c from Lusternia. (with a mean nasty message and rolepoints removed)

Shrubbing is just the maximum punishment, but it is not the only punishment.

Ok, people probably aren't going to like my opinion, but here it goes.


Throwing the best weapons outside of 2-3 standard deviations (roughly 1-5%) makes them the "best" weapons. Not the "optimal weapons that everyone has". It also sets forging apart from other professions, and makes it economically viable.

Does it take a very long time? Yes. Yes it does. Something I didn't appreciate until I forged my first pair of masterweapons for somebody. In fact, I didn't see the value of the forging hammer until I actually sat down and went for a particular level of stats on a master weapon. Just one of the two weapons took me hours upon hours of reforging, by hand, with no scripts, talking to other people in short, broken sentences so that I could keep up the pace.


This gave me a real sense of accomplishment, even if it was just from basically entering a few commands over and over. But more than that, it's important that forging, which is basically relied upon mostly by knights (save for the odd shield, kata weapon, or odd case of someone else NOT wearing a great robe) retain some sense of economic viability.

For the size of the market, there are a great many forgers. If it were a more trivial matter to make a top-tier weapon, then not only would they be common, but every forger would more or less be working at materials cost. I mean, maybe balance wise, warriors should be balanced against something less than the top level of weapons- because not everyone is going to have them, and because putting forth RL days worth of effort should do something better than "break even" with another class (apples to oranges, but I can usually get out a very good Kata weapon, for example, in far, far, far less time. They take a miniscule amount of refining in comparison to masterweapons, or even standard weapons for that matter). But that's class balance, and I am so not qualified to make any really detailed analyisis of that.

What the current system allows for is a few dedicated forgers to make really impressive weapons. It means that even other trans forgers might go to them because they are unwilling to sit down and dedicate the time to make the weapon. It makes the weapons much more special than if any forger could say "Hey, nice swords. La de la! Stop by comm shop, go to forge, bangity bang bang! Now I have swords of casual dismemberment too!"

It's also a much better system than compared to "This sword is awesome, but you need a vial of the essence of a soulless god in order to forge it." I hate those systems. It basically means there's going to be a near fixed, almost mechanical, linear relationship between how powerful your character is (be it politically or physically) and how good of a craftsperson they are. They're obnoxious, because you can't focus on being a forger, you can't make it a special character attribute, because in order to be one, you have to be Balrog. And as Cartman points out, this is because Balrog has lots and lots of powers. Seriously, if we swapped to that sort of system, I'd just move my points out of forging and dump them into the common skills I've been neglecting. Lame lame lame lame lame.


Forging, as it is, puts its power in the hands of the artist from and RP standpoint. If they're determined and willful enough, they can sit there and make a weapon to be proud of. Are they going to sit there forging extremely well crafted items in piles? No, of course not. That's what makes extremely well crafted weapons special, instead of commonplace. From a world building standpoint, wouldn't you want the really good weapons to be something uncommon? Something perhaps that anyone who's dumped enough points in forging could imitate, but not duplicate without putting forth a lot of effort themselves.

Is this post going to take a terrible karmic vengance upon me when next I go to forge a masterweapon? More than likely. But I stand by it anyway.

You have to balance against the max and the min.

Otherwise, you don't get good balance. If just one person is OP, then that messes up the whole system.

That is, if just one person was able to make a weapon that allowed them to get 2 billion wounding, and 5 gajillion damage. Then when that person is online, everybody off logs off, and the whole thing goes out of whack.

zMUD has an option to play a sound on certain events, you know. Windows stanard ding on someone else entering the room, saying something, sending you a tell, or logging on where you are, would go a long way to keeping you out of trouble. You think I haven't gone semi-AFK while my two warrior alts were forging? So long as you keep it semi-AFK, and not really AFK, and have ways to alert yourself to trouble, you'll be fine.

I've unashamedly gone afk-forging for 3+ days straight. Until the admin fix forging so it isn't retarded (90 damage, 210+ speed flails) then there really is no other choice than to afkforge for a week in the hope of getting a single decent item. It was back in FEBRUARY that we last heard that they were looking at Forging, and its still as bad now as it was then. There needs to be an extensive overhaul of the forging process, from the amount of time it takes to forge to the actual weighting that each stat recieves. Even with this out in the open - I won't stop afkforging, because it *is* the only way to conceivably get a good weapon done.

That being said - the times I've been booted for afkforging were when I actually fell asleep at my keyboard waiting for something useful to come out.

For example - it took me 13 consecutive days of forging to forge Yrael a single fighting hammer not long ago. If anyone claims that they would be able to sit at their computer not being afk for those 300+ hours then they are completely full of . Given an average playtime of 4 hours per day, that single hammer would have taken me 78 days to complete - and that is completely rubbish.

Charune (on forums) said it was tolerable to be AFK while forging.

The problem is still more so that you're voluntarily spending so much time forging and AFK to try and get good weapons and armor and less that there's something wrong with the skill itself. Sure, I agree that Forging could use some work to try and reduce the time it takes to achieve nice stats, but going AFK, especially for DAYS, is just inexcusable.

Perhaps cause forging to take a certain amount of time regardless - 15 forges for a basic, just formed object. 50 for a middle of the road one, and then you specify the stats you're after. Then, 100 gets you within 5 points of those statistics?





It is a one-handed weapon.
Damage: 58 Precision: 203 Speed: 205
A colossal brutish hammer has no poisons or magical effects on it.

And I was after x/205+/215+. *mumble*

We're actually enforcing the AFK policy now?

I have to agree with Myndaen. Ignorance is Bliss.

I'm not a forger, but I don't see how it's inexusable. Unless someone doesn't a job or school or something and can afford to sit on their bum for hours and days on end, this is really unrealistic and unfair of the administration for implementing a skillset to work this way.

At least they have the option of sitting on their bums all day to forge. I spend hours on end wandering all over trying to scrape together enough herbs to sell to the kiddies. (Half joking with sarcasm, but only half.)