I find this part to be slightly misinformed. Ilyrias was shut down due to numerous reasons, one of them being that Haji didn't pay his bill to use the Rapture based engine (What IRE games use as the core engine) on time. Now, the Rapture engine had stop being up for "sale/useage", except it contained a grandfather clause, in which that anyone who had previously bought the engine, could keep using it and getting updates (i think), as long as they made sure to pay their renewals on time. If it so happened that they were late, IRE reserved the right to discontinue giving the "buyer" the rights to use the Rapture engine. So Haji was late on his payment and Matt reserved and used his right to stop granting Haji the rights to using the Rapture system. This among other things was what shut Ilyrias down before it got started. (Now granted, this may not be the "exact way" it went down, I am not Matt, and I do not own a liscense to run the Rapture engine, nor do I speak with Haji on a daily basis, but this is what I was told by someone who was friends with Haji. So remember there are two sides to every story and somewhere in the middle lies the truth, so this is only one side, but it didn't seem to be an angry hateful Haji saying he was screwed, but more of an "oh crap, damn I didn't pay it on time and well rules are rules, so I lost use of using the Rapture engine." reason.

It wouldn't have mattered how much trash he talked on an IRC chatroom, it wouldn't have mattered if Matt was in an Ilyrias chatroom talking smack about Haji's Mud. IRC is not a place that is ever going to be moderated by companies in such a way so to speak. I mean, if the admins here decided to go that far, I am quite sure that Xenthos or the Shiribot, or even Zalana (all of whom were IRC mods there) could and would just boot them from the chatroom. Or the playerbase could simply make a chatroom called FreedomLusternia, LusterniaSucks or any other name they would like to come up with and have the main group of people who end up in the IRC chatroom move to the new chatroom.

I do think that having more facts is better than saying it is due to karma though. There is more to it than that, and hell I am sure there is a lot more to it than I know as well. The only two people who would both probably know exactly all there is to know about it are Matt and Haji.

Sorry Arix, I was still typing when you posted that, so mine can count

It's the degree of bad things said. Usually you have the people defend the admin here, over there no admin to talk back, etc etc etc.

Also...

I'm not too fond of what the Administration does concerning how to promote their game and deals with the interests of players. I don't really mind the Administration themselves (though I could do with the 'constructive criticism' bit being dropped and them taking everything as stated) except for a few quirks here or there. I have fun in the game still, most times - though some things are unbelievably boring. Do I sit and make topics screaming over it, whining about it, proceeding to cry about it? No, I post criticism (sometimes very thinly veiled, hostile criticism, I will admit right now) - but it isn't whining. I don't think I'm ungrateful - I'm grateful that Lusternia can entertain me. I'm not grateful for certain things. Also, it is, in fact, a game.

There is no need for everybody in this game to 'like' the Administration, Phred. No need, whatsoever. People tend to act different behind the veil of anonymity - especially when what they say about people can't be punished like it could be on a forum or in game. I'm sure I'd go off on ridiculous tangents on the IRC channel if I cared to log in - I know I did in Imperian's, where I put up paragraph previews of posts that would 10 minutes later get me a two month ban from said forums. In fact, I prefer the 'unmoderated' and 'two-faced' attribute instead of the apathetic, 'constructive' forums. It's much more a comfortable environment when I can 'shoot the ' (I'm not sure if I can actually say that without a moderator warn, so I'll play it safe tonight) without somebody going emotional or calling me a troll because I'm being slightly negative.

Also, the stupid server is refusing my connection via ChatZilla - is it down or something?

EDIT: Nevermind!

Um.

While Lusternia is a game, it is also a business.

Expecting a business to have some kind of obligation to continue linking to an independent chat room where a competitor's forthcoming product is promoted heavily, even if their product is discussed as well is ludicrous. It's like making Apple link from apple.com to a chat room called 'iPod users intending to buy Zunes instead of a new iPod'. This is people's livelihood that we're talking about here. Kind of a no-brainer, really.

If the admin started pretending all user-made creations that didn't totally agree with their views were bad, they wouldn't get very far.

Discussing != Promoting. A few people probably said that it seemed cool and we should check it out. People did that on the forums too. We also discuss things like MtG on the channel, and even regular video games. That doesn't mean we're promoting them.

I didn't intend to start an argument over this, Phred. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab, but argue it out if you wish.

EDIT: Apologies to people who already said this stuff. I started typing this post last night, and only actually posted it today.

There were forum threads here about Ilyrias at the time. There are also threads about M:tG, some other card game (Pox Nora?), various flash games (one that Estarra has linked to), Aetolia, Achaea, Imperian... there are threads with people trading credits to these other games (moving their business). There's a thread about Earth Eternal, a thread about people wanting to make their own MUDs (eek, competition), and so on.

Ilyrias was never being promoted in that chat room. Ilyrias was being promoted in #Ilyrias-- the room designed for it. Was it discussed? Sure-- just like it was discussed here on the forums, and on DoK, and on Bellator's, and pretty much any OOC venue related to and supported by the game. If it's such a no-brainer-- why wasn't everything else cleaned up?

Awww, all this yelling back and forth. It's a bloody chat room. People go there to chat. I may make a lot out of a little sometimes but even I wouldn't make this much out of a bloody chat room. Just go there and chat, really.

I'm gonna actually agree with Gwylifar.

Only reason I even spoke up was people blamed me for it's lack of popularity. I have no problem with people using or the existence of IRC in general, I personally found out it's not my cup of tea.

Thats a bunch of lies.

I was specifically recruited to the Ilyrias forums because of the IRC channel.

I was asked to put sigs in the forums to link people to hte ilyrias forums in that channel, being asked to bring people over from Lusternia.

Whether that is ok or not, is a different question, but don't pretend people were all innocent. Baram spent most of his time either talking bout Ilyrias, or giving "inside gossip" about how incompetent the other admin were. For a couple RL months, the Ilyrias chat room was silent, even though people were there.

And I was kicked out of the room often enough to know that it was fully in the power of certain people to let and not let certain people in.

If the forums in general tend to make people see the game as more negetive, than the IRC room certainly made people see the forums more negative.

FYI: I don't log into the chartroom much because I got in trouble for it at work The above stuff that happened in there I didn't mind one way or another, but it is false to say it didn't happen.

I dunno, I was thinking about this this weekend- I was shopping for groceries, and they were out of the soy mac and cheese I like. Some clerk who probably makes minimum wage or close to it scaled a set of freezer shelves to pull an unopened case off the top shelf, after a manager was feeding me the "if it's not on the shelves, we don't have it" line.

I felt greatful to the clerk, who could have basically walked away with no adverse impact. I guess my point is, even though I'm a paying customer (with or without my mac n' cheese), there's a grey area there somewhere- while the manager probably wasn't doing her job, I don't think the clerk's effort of climbing frozen, slick shelves for something I'm gonna stick in the microwave for two minutes is compensated for by minimum wage.

So, even though I definitely agree that expectations are raised significantly by the act of "paying", I think there's enough wiggle room for a situation to arise where a customer is "ungrateful"... but I'm splitting hairs here.

Regarding the IRC thing, it's sort of a mixed bag too, isn't it? On the one hand, an unofficial, topic centered channel that, in the scope of it's existance, encompasses negative/contrary/opposed conversation is almost a given, and thus nothing to get worked up about. On the other hand, sometimes things like that can breed a destructive, cancerous negativity that's not particularly founded in anything, but can be harmful.

I don't have a problem with the concept of IRC at all, and have logged in and chatted on occasion. My only beef with it is that it's such a hassle for me to log in. I can't use regular AIM or AOL, I have to use Trillian - which I don't normally use. Then, the directions for logging in are just plain confusing to me. I fully admit I'm computer stupid, so I'm prolly the only person who has trouble, but it takes me like 5-10 minutes of fiddling to get it to work. Which is why I don't log in more often.

Exactly. Thanks for backing me up Daganev.

Verithrax calling me a liar is why I complained about people being two-faced. I remember our chats Verithrax, and those few with Baram. I have absolutely no reason to lie--heck, you and I used to get along until I reported this. At least in that rant thread, Visaeris was honest and didn't try to hide his (at that time) contempt for the game--I have more respect for that honesty. Just because I don't have the chat logs doesn't mean I am lying. I would rather you be honest and admit you wanted as many of your friends to leave the game and join the one you were involved with. I ask people compare my behavior with yours and judge for themselves who is telling the truth.



Talking about the competition was never my objection. The fact that this thread exists is proof of that. In fact, I discussed that.

People being negative was not my intent. I had concerns about IRC being more of a poison atmosphere because of negativity, but that was secondary. I don't think people should troll, but people are free to criticize here.

What I objected to was the people who modded that forum allowing an ex-admin (who was fired) in to gossip and promote the MUD. Baram's not allowed in this forum, and for obvious reasons. Daganev is right. You had the power to kick people if you wanted to. I remember Lisaera once coming in and saying "do not let these game/forum banned people in here", and as mods you agreed. You could have chosen to say something like "Baram, we feel this is a conflict of interest, can you not lurk here". I know I would have done that.

You chose not to. You chose to do the opposite. At least one IRC mod became an Ilyrias builder, and when I was in there I at least witnessed Baram revealing stuff about the admin once on IRC, and once on their defunct forums.

That is why I used the term ungrateful. My objection to Baram was working on recruiting people from the MUD directly. If I was fired from a job, I wouldn't do anything that would violate ethical principles. People dismissed from companies usually have non-solicit agreements. Maybe Baram didn't have those limitations. But still, he didn't have to do that. I once sent a few e-mails to an Ephemeral who ended up becoming mortal again, and she had strict ethical guidelines and would not discuss specific details about her time as a proto-god. That's basic ethics.

But the players who supported that behavior in IRC are to blame to. You let it happen, and it was disappointing for me to see people use a channel actually endorsed by Lusternia to do this. I thought that was using Estarra and Roark as patsies. I didn't object to IRC existing, I just felt like people should know that it was being used as a recruitment tool.

When I speak of being ungrateful--I respect the admin as human beings. (And this isn't a fry-cook job we're talking about, there's some creativity involved.) Matt explained that he was fired for violating god-rules then lying to Estarra and Roark. Some of you didn't care, you either cared "oh no, Lusternia lost their best coder, the game's gonna suck now", or "you got a new MUD, cool, Estarra sucks, let's get all the players to follow you". Don't you see how downright insulting it might be, to the owners of this MUD, to let the fired person in?

If somebody betrayed your trust, how would you feel. At least look at it from the perspective from this angle. You call me selfish, but this action by certain individuals was selfish IMO.

So yeah, it got to me, after being exposed to that and some negativity, I ranted and also warned them.

The IRC still exists, it's just not endorsed by Lusternia anymore. Which is probably what it should have been. And because of this thread, there's probably more attention for it now than anywhere else.

I'll consider the subject closed if you will--but if you're going to attack me or take shots at me I will defend myself and my actions.

So, he got fired for a reason not even everybody really agreed on or cared about, and you're angry at people for not instantly and completely shunning him like he's a leper? Get a grip.

Oh, it's certainly valid to be grateful to someone who's doing something extra than what you were paying them for. I do not think, however, that Lusternia's admins are.

I have to agree with you too on this part. A clerk at a grocerystore is not the grocerystore's "mother" (I use the term mother in the sense that Lusternia is Estarra's lil baby, this IRE Mud is mainly, if not completely her brainchild.) So while they may ring up groceries for you with a smile on their face, they are only there to get a small paycheck while they do this for you, they have no real vested intrest in the store more than a paycheck.

As for the IRC Moderator that happened to be helping in Ilyrias (if you were referring to a girl who used to play in Magnagora), why yes she and an org's CL were both developing rooms and skillsets, along with a few other "well known and some well vested players" that play Lusternia. I know one crazy warrior who was working pretty hard on an Archery skillset there. I don't think that it makes them "traitorous" or anything like that to Lusternia in anyway.

What I do think made them discuss Ilyrias, especially in a good way, was they felt more of a part of the "building/community", that they, in fact, got a chance to show what a player could design for a skillset, without it being told "no" "too OP" or hearing different whinge brigade affiliations trying to stop ideas before they even started (which a few thought was being done to them in Lusternia). It gave a sense of participation in a game that they (especially at that point in time) felt they were lacking in Lusternia. If people remember, it was the time of the initial stat weighting "nerfs", and some other issues, like the post "warrior summit", where some of the players, felt that key issues (to them) were being brushed under the rug. Now, them being able to help participate in developing skillsets (especially) in Ilyrias, gave them a sense of satisfaction they were not quite getting in Lusternia at the time. It was also a "new" thing. Where people were hoping to help to create a Mud that encompassed all the things they thought may be lacking in Lusternia at that point in time, and making a "utopian" MUD that gave them all exactly what they really wanted in a MUD with a Rapture engine as a core.

I can name alot of people who were extremely excited about the pirate archetype and were already forming pirate alliances, and how best to RP piracy, etc. The point being is, that just because these people discussed a shared intrest on an IRC channel in which they were always loitering on in the first place, did not make them any less addicted to Lusternia. It was a place were they all met up, and could talk about anything, and not be persecuted for it. If Baram wanted to talk smack about the admins who ran all of the IRE MUDs, it shouldn't matter one bit. That chat room, was a place were people should be able to hear/vent/speak whatever they wanted (within reason ex: not child porn swapping, ways to kill a leader of a country, etc), and the responsibility would fall on the person listening to the rantings and ravings of the others to decide what is truth or not. I could make a website or several for that matter stating that Estarra was really a 200 year old lizardman, bent on ruling the planet using MUDs as a way to create a new religion. If people believed me, that would be their own stupidity. The fact remains, that as long as the people in the chat room stuck to a simple code of conduct, that they could talk/rant about whatever they wanted to. So by bringing something that may be discussed in IRC to the forums, IMO is in bad taste.

So, since the only true affiliation that IRC Lusternia had to the IRE game was the name, I don't see why people should not promote anything they wish there (again within reason as stated above) And if any ex-Mod chose to speak there about things they wanted others to know (be it true or false) they were well within their right to do so. Nothing was stopping any existing mods from going there and telling the rest about the things that Haji pulled as a mod here.

Now, on the other hand, I agree that IRE and Lusternia have no responsibility to have a link to any IRC channel on their websites, and they could remove it for any reason they chose to. If they didn't want it there because they thought IRC text should only show up pink, they could remove it from their website. That is their choice and can do whatever they like with their website.

Because I did ask people to take it elsewhere when I was around and it was really off-topic / interfering with normal conversation, probably.

Also, there was an Executive Order that said, "None of you administrators are allowed to join IRC," or at least that's my understanding. I'm guessing the reason was so that they wouldn't be tempted to spill upcoming schemes out of the benevolent sight of the Overlords, but I'm not 100% sure.

Still, it was primarily intended as a Lusternian chat room, and things too far off topic did have their own rooms made about them for people to go off and have more in-depth discussions (M:tG anyone?) when people were actually trying to talk about Lusternia. If it's not really interrupting anything, though, and isn't aggressive / demeaning / trying to make someone in the room overly uncomfortable / cry... what's the harm in letting some people talk about other stuff for a bit? It happens here on these forums too, in the Real World section. There's an awful lot of non-Lusternian discussion, and it seems that a number of people like that.

They like it on IRC just as much. They aren't magically a whole different person there.

Ahh, I was only there for some of the chatting, and it was more about, "join my pirate crew" kind of thing. I also didn't know that there was some executive order, which makes it so they would not have been able to be there to defend themselves (which wouldn't have been as fair)