How to kill people as a Shadowdancer.

by Shamarah

Back to Combat Guide.

Shamarah2007-11-24 21:04:59
An Outline

I. Foreword
II. Using Choke Properly
III. Sleeplocks
VI. Killing Outside Choke
V. Other Tactics
VI. Afterword

I. Foreword

Most people don't really know how to use the Shadowdancer class. I'm writing this
1) out of boredom
2) in the hope that the Shadowdancers will get some more decent fighters out of it.

This guide will, in theory, cover all of the main SD tactics, though of course theory is no substitute for practice, and reading this won't automatically make you as awesome as I am.

I'm also not going to bother talking about tactics that only work on unprepared, inexperienced, low-levelled, or incompetent players. Pretty much anything can kill one of those. This guide will focus entirely on killing an intelligent, competent fighter who knows how to counter you, because that's all that's really worth strategizing for.

I'm assuming you know the basics of curing and how offense works in Lusternia, and what the Shadowdancer skills do. I'm not going to spend an hour outlining every single skill available to us. If you don't know what something does, ask someone or figure it out yourself.

This guide will not discuss using Astrologer aeon, because that's a completely different type of combat and honestly if aeon is what you want to do you should just go Moondancer.

And, finally, this is only about solo combat. I'm not going to discuss group tactics here, they're pretty easy to figure out anyway.

And by the way, when I use a ; in commands I'm referring to stacking two commands together.

II. Using Choke Properly

Honestly, most people don't know how to use this well.

When you drop choke on someone, you should keep the following three goals in mind:
1. To prevent the enemy from attacking you.
2. To prevent the enemy from running or tumbling.
3. To kill the enemy.

Let's talk about these in order.

Preventing the enemy from attacking you:
Choke can definitely be a double-edged sword, and if you screw up it can easily be turned on you. However, you have a number of advantages in it. It should go without saying that you should pretty much always have drink up in choke (yes, yes, I know that stops you from using love potion, but it's generally better to have drink than love). You can also always tumble; most classes can't interrupt tumble easily. Only a hex user, via doublewhammy sleep, will be able to efficiently stop you from tumbling out of your own choke.

Sleeplocks are the best method of preventing the enemy from attacking you because they accomplish both goals #1 and #2. However, if you know that the enemy is going to stand and fight in choke (and some people do), you can use hexes like paralysis/impatience/stupidity and skills like scourge and aurawarp to keep them down. (Yes, I realize that you won't have access to both hexes and aurawarp, I'm just rattling things off.)

Preventing the enemy from getting away:
Stopping people from walking away in choke is trivial. Tumble is the real bane of a choke user, because so few things stop it. Namely, being asleep, being put to sleep while tumbling, and being off-balance when attempting to tumble.

There are two ways of doing this, and the more practical one and the one you hear most about is the sleeplock. I will elaborate in great detail over how to pull off a sleeplock in part III.

The other way is mainly used in compliment with a sleeplock, and only works for a hex user. What you do is hit the opponent with scabies and epilepsy in an attempt to keep them off-balance and prevent them from tumbling out; many people won't cure trivial little afflictions like that because they'll be busy trying to survive other things, and they can screw up their tumble attempts. If they start a tumble, you should put them back to sleep. I think Diamante came up with this originally, but it's been used by a lot of people, including me when I was a Hexen.

Killing the enemy:
Toadcurse is usually your best option here. The advantage of using toadcurse is that all you have to do is hit with succumb, and if they don't cure it (most people won't), just web/sleep until they're at half mana and you have 8p ready. The disadvantage is that it costs 8p, and if you've spent a lot of the power on the setup, this can be slow.

If you're fighting a particularly good curer and can't seem to stop them from curing succumb, use anorexia/asthma/stupidity hexes if you're a hexen, or aurawarp if you're a healer, or whatever rays look good if you're an astrologer.

Nightkiss is, of course, another option. However, nightkiss just doesn't cut it against the top tier most of the time, because damage will break sleeplocks, which may give them a window to tumble out, especially if they have a fast tumble time. Toadcurse is better because none of the steps required will wake up the enemy. If you are going for a damage kill in choke, it is in my opinion not generally worth using steal because you're wasting several seconds for only +10% damage - you could get more damage in that time by just attacking. (Out of choke, however, steal can be quite useful.) Using sensitivity can be worth it, though, against people with exceptionally high health - but then again, what are you doing trying to damage kill someone with exceptionally high health anyway?

III. Sleeplocks

Sleeplocks are used to prevent people from tumbling out of choke. They are the optimal method for doing so.

I define sleeplock as a condition in which the opponent is asleep without kafe or metawake, and is hindered sufficiently that you can, given ideal circumstances, continue to put them back to sleep when they wake up.

By this definition, you can't sleeplock someone without choke or aeon, because without those they can just put insomnia, kafe, and metawake back up as soon as they wake and you're back at square 1. You can put them to sleep, sure (a hexen can time "order @tar metawake off;doublewhammy @tar sleep sleep" with a pixie tick) which does have limited uses but the main purpose of a sleeplock for a Shadowdancer is to keep someone down in choke.

A few facts of note:
1. Sleep effects (sleep hexes, a pixie, a sleep enchant) will strip insomnia. If they hit a target without insomnia, they will put the target to sleep. If they hit a target that is already asleep, they will strip kafe. Ordinary sleep effects will never strip metawake.
2. Metawake does not require you to input a command to wake up. If put to sleep with metawake up, you will wake up automatically and nearly instantaneously. Sleep is, therefore, virtually worthless against someone with it up.
3. The only way to strip metawake is to use your pooka to force them to turn it off.
4. The only way you can stop a tumble that has already begun is to put them to sleep before they tumble out. However:
5. If they have metawake up, putting them to sleep will not interrupt tumble. Therefore:
6. If they get metawake back up, you're pretty much censor.gif ed.

If your goal is to sleeplock someone, you should NEVER, NEVER pre-choke, because you're going to need to strip their metawake first. Here's how you should do it.

1. Set fae on them, cauldron release, and wait for pooka to gain control.
2. If you are a healer, aurashift the neurosis aura to start passively stripping their insomnia.
3. Wait for them to attack you so that they're off-balance, then all at once, order @tar metawake off and shadowdance choke. If you are off-balance, you can't put metawake back up, and you absolutely do NOT want them getting metawake back up because they can then tumble out. By the way, if you're fighting a warrior, you shouldn't do this right after a raze, because the balance on raze is really really short and they'll recover balance from the raze before you recover eq from choke. However, if you're fighting a two-hander, if you can trick them into cleaving, cleave has a really long balance time (1.5x a normal strike) and it can be easier to drop that choke on them that way. It helps to learn which skills leave the opponent off-balance for a particularly long time and which ones are really fast, like razing or hexes. Oh, and if you want to be really tricky, you can time the choke so that pixie ticks right after you use it, but this isn't usually necessary.
4. If you are a hexen, doublewhammy sleep/sleep. Otherwise, go ahead and just use a sleep enchant.
5. Once you know they're asleep without kafe, succumb (I'm assuming you're going for a toadcurse kill here). You can also toss in scabies and epilepsy hexes around here if you want to, which can be helpful, but aren't strictly necessary.
6. If you want to make extra-sure that they don't get away after you toadcurse, you can put up icewalls. I generally find, though, that it's usually very possible to chase down toads, as a lot of them are pretty predictable in which way they go and don't go as fast as they could. Doing this in open areas or areas with odd disorienting functions like the seas or the Celest arena, however, is not advised. Don't be lazy; you bought that icewall enchant for a reason.
7. Make sure you put them back to sleep if they wake up. This, of course, goes double if they start tumbling. A particularly adept opponent will try to put metawake back up as soon as they awake, in which case it is often imperative that you stay on balance so that you can put them to sleep right away.
8. Toadcurse.

IV. Killing Outside Choke

Sometimes choke isn't practical because you're jumping someone and think they'll run too fast, or because you want to give a lower-skilled combatant a chance, or because you just don't feel like using it. Here are a few ways of killing people outside of choke that I've found work okay, though generally not as reliably as choke. Most of them require Hexes.

Surprise! Toadcurse! (Hexes)
This trick works well on weaker systems, and it works particularly well on Ciaran's system (although most people who buy systems these days use Palisade, so it's not quite as good as it used to be). What you want to do is land a rapid toadcurse, so you can't use up a lot of power doing it - an absolute maximum of 3, you just can't wait for more than 1p to regenerate if you're doing this tactic. My normal combo for it was:
- whammy stupidity
- doublewhammy anorexia/asthma
- order focus body, succumb
- contemplate and toadcurse when they're under half mana
Like most non-choke tactics, it won't work on everyone, but it's useful sometimes.

Surprise! Damage Kill! (Hexes)
Again, this works well on weaker systems and people who don't diagnose enough. Since you're going for a damage kill, you don't have to worry about conserving power and can go ahead and do 3 doublewhammies:
- shadowdance steal
- doublewhammy stupidity/masochism
- doublewhammy recklessness/addiction
- order sip bromides (this will waste their sip if they happen to be on sip balance, and it will take 8 seconds to come back with addiction), doublewhammy sensitivity/sensitivity (you need to do it twice because the first one will just strip deafness)
- nightkiss until death
The hex combos on this are variable, and playing with them to find the ones that work the best is left as an exercise to the reader. I didn't use this one all that much, but it can come in handy sometimes so I figured I'd include it.

Where Did That Succumb Come From? (Hexes)
You use the vapors hex and succumb them while they have blackout and possibly let succumb tick multiple times and get a toadcurse out of it. Some people will cure blackout with allheale, in which case you can throw two in a row (one to waste their allheale, one to actually black them out). I don't think there's much else to say about this one.

Aurawarp/Toadcurse (Healing)
Aurawarp is good with toadcurse for two reasons: it's a reishi cure, and it stops you from eating randomly. Against people who are silly enough to stay in the room with you when aurawarp is up, you can succumb them. What happens is:
- aurawarp can sometimes stop them from eating reishi long enough to let succumb tick multiple times
- since both aurawarp and succumb are reishi cures, there's a 50% chance of either being cured on consumption of reishi. If you get lucky, the reishi may hit the aurawarp instead of the succumb... which won't be cured anyway, since you're in the room!
Make sure to use pigwidgeon to stop them from walking out easily, and to move after them if they tumble, especially since many people will be slow curing aurawarp.

Most of these tactics, as you've probably noticed, are tricks that they have to fall for. On the whole, most tactics that Shadowdancers can use outside of choke are limited in scope and rely on the enemy falling for them. Against a particularly good opponent, you'll probably have to use choke.

V. Other Tactics

Brumetower Trap:
First popularized by Narsrim/Ariatas, the brumetower trap is in my opinion rather cheap, but what you do is:
1. Release shadows and pre-choke (yes, pre-choke, I know this goes against everything I've told you but this is how the tactic works)
2. If you are a hex user, it can be a good idea to leave a paralysis hex on the ground in the room with hex sense up so you know when the other person enters.
3. Wait.
4. When the opponent enters, seize them and cast brumetower. The brumetower will now prevent them from tumbling out; the only way to get out is to first climb down which, if you're doing this right, you should generally be able to stop them from doing.
I consider this pretty cheap because tumble is the fundamental counter to choke, and it's rather imbalanced without you being able to tumble. Someone should probably get around to fixing this via envoys one of these days.

Crotamine Food:
I think credit to this one goes to Tuek, who used it in conjunction with MD aeon, but it can work for a SD too.
What you do is give them gluttony via a hex and give them food poisoned with crotamine, then sleeplock them and use anorexia or whatever, and if you keep them locked down they won't be able to cure the crotamine and will die.
Because this tactic does not properly trigger suspect via the Avenger, using it on prime is illegal and is an issuable offense. DON'T DO THIS ON PRIME.

Useful things to force with Pooka:
1. Focus body.
2. Metawake off.
3. Drink bromides.
4. Eat chervil.
5. Give senso, force drink senso and then doublewhammy anorexia/asthma (this is actually a lock against people without focus mind or some sort of other curing skill).
6. Drink charybdon.
7. Order entourage kill me.
8. You can force people to do various odd things depending on their class, but there are way too many of them to list here. Just think about the different skills that require large amounts of mana, or that require loss of health, or that take a lot of eq, or whatever... Figuring these out is left as an exercise for the reader.
9. Point staff/cudgel me here (this will cause mages/druids to hit themselves, but they need to be on balance/eq).
10. Stealing, if you want to, but expect the ENTIRE GAME to bitch up a storm at you.
There are a lot of things you can do with Pooka. Just use that creativity.

VI. Afterword

This isn't absolutely everything, but I think it's pretty comprehensive. There's a few interesting tricks with a couple of skills that I didn't mention here, but I'm not going to give everything away! This guide is meant to summarize the main tactics you'll see - odd fringe tactics are left up to you to discover. Or you can bribe me with credits, or win my eternal gratitude and a useful feature at the same time.

If you happen to think of anything that ought to be here, I guess let me know and I'll throw it in.

-Shamarah
Unknown2007-11-24 21:15:02
Ooh, nice. I have to read this when I wake up. I'm so happy, I'm tempted to get that IMap thing from your siggy, too. (I get lost alot)
Valaria2007-11-25 17:00:06
Very good and elegant guide even though I am not a shadowdancer of Glomdoring. smile.gif
Shamarah2007-11-25 21:26:18
Helpful comments from Narsrim:

QUOTE
You left out Sun Allergy. As silly as it sounds, I achieved kills on all kinds of people with Sun Allergy. Forren, for example, died to sun allergy in a FFA. I just focused entirely on keeping him down and in choke.

Also, I think you should mention that Choke isn't something you can only do once. I found on people who I had trouble removing their metawake that if I scourged (blinded) them in choke and then waited for them to tumble, entered before they did, and choked... it really hurt a lot of people because they then had no idea where to tumble. As a result, most tended to tumble back into the other choked room. In any case, this panic caused plenty of time to kill (this is how Forren died to sun allergy listed above).

Xavius2007-11-25 21:47:08
The prep for choke sleeplock looks suspiciously like the prep for sap, except waiting for the demesne/fae isn't optional.
Desitrus2007-11-26 23:06:53
Choke, Choke, lol.

Someone had to say it.

PS: It's a good writeup.
Unknown2007-12-01 18:36:59
I know that Dreamweaving isn't the first, most viable choice for mage combat (I know mages who wanted to be combatants would take Psionics over it) not sure about druids, which a wiccan would fight more regularly, but how would a choke user following your strategy handle someone with Control? AFAIK, you can't pooka them into turning it off like with Metawake. Is it even viable to try a sleeplock against a dreamweaver or would you have to go with something else?
Shamarah2007-12-01 19:36:43
If I recall correctly, Control is basically an insomnia that can't be stripped. There really isn't much you can do about it; you can still be forced to sleep with Control up, but forcing things in choke never works, so just do something else against dreamweavers.
Arix2007-12-01 23:51:48
force them to put their motes away
Xenthos2007-12-02 00:23:43
QUOTE(Arix @ Dec 1 2007, 06:51 PM) 461512
force them to put their motes away

#trigger ForceMessage {#if (@Choke) {#say They're trying to force something! Your action has been reset! Clearing their command.;#send nstat}
Malarious2007-12-03 10:55:50
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Dec 1 2007, 07:23 PM) 461518
#trigger ForceMessage {#if (@Choke) {#say They're trying to force something! Your action has been reset! Clearing their command.;#send nstat}


Minor note.. you only have 1 close in that.

Maybe...

#trigger ForceMessage {#if (@Choke)} {#say They're trying to force something! Your action has been reset! Clearing their command.;#send nstat}

?

Just makin sure in case they tried to use it
Arak2007-12-03 18:53:45
What exactly would it be triggering off of? Would it give a 'You are forced to do something' message, and then have that action choked as well? Because if so that message would need to be in the trigger for it to work anyway, so the semantic objection is kind of pointless. And if not, that is if this trigger goes off every line, then it pretty much breaks you in choke. Even if it only hits on the 'forced' message, someone could notice and just repeatedly illusion that message so you'd be completely screwed. Make the response manual at least.

For those that don't understand, I'm just saying don't try to use such a trigger, because it's ineffective and abusable. Use an echo if you want, but anyone fighting in choke should be entering commands at every opportunity, so forcing is pretty much a non-issue as it will never go through against a decent combatant (assuming, of course, that choke affects the forced command).
Xenthos2007-12-03 19:51:39
QUOTE(Arak @ Dec 3 2007, 01:53 PM) 461972
What exactly would it be triggering off of? Would it give a 'You are forced to do something' message, and then have that action choked as well? Because if so that message would need to be in the trigger for it to work anyway, so the semantic objection is kind of pointless. And if not, that is if this trigger goes off every line, then it pretty much breaks you in choke. Even if it only hits on the 'forced' message, someone could notice and just repeatedly illusion that message so you'd be completely screwed. Make the response manual at least.

For those that don't understand, I'm just saying don't try to use such a trigger, because it's ineffective and abusable. Use an echo if you want, but anyone fighting in choke should be entering commands at every opportunity, so forcing is pretty much a non-issue as it will never go through against a decent combatant (assuming, of course, that choke affects the forced command).

It's sure not ineffective, but you can just as easily do a #say instead if you're afraid of it being abused. Still, it's not hard to add in a check or two-- the only real issue would be against a telepath who can force and illusion. Further, that's why you don't do something that's easily noticeable-- they're not going to tell the difference between you typing nstat or having a trigger do it (note: if they're wasting 1s in Choke to make you waste 1s, it's not really going to get them far).

Another alternative would be to "save" the last command you entered if in Choke, and on that force message, just resend it. At most, 1s lost. At worst, a fraction of a second. And yes, it gives the "you are forced to do something" message and then gives you 1s to stop that force.

Finally, to Malarious: No, you'd just put another } at the end of it, after the first one. It's not meant to be real code since I didn't actually go get the dominate/force messages.
Arak2007-12-03 20:42:29
Makes sense. I was just arguing against the specific trigger, because it looked, at least from what Malarious was saying, like that original trigger setup was supposed to be taken literally. Plus it ups my post count, which is always a nice thing.

Also, on the topic of dreamweavers, if it's a dreamweaver there's a great chance it's a druid, which means there's a great chance they will immediately meld. As a shadowdancer, what sort of tactics would you take to protect yourself from their superior passive effects? And would choke be usable in this situation?
Krellan2007-12-03 20:56:48
If it's a druid, you can expect them to sap. If they have low health, y ou can go for a damage kill without choke. Otherwise, you can wait for love potion to tick and then choke immediately, buying you those few extra seconds that they need to reject and regain balance and input the next command to enemy and then start their attack again. Or they'll likely try to move first. But if you don't use choke, they'll just be using sap most likely.
Arak2007-12-03 21:01:11
Here's a supplementary question. How does one cure the effects of a love potion? Or does it just wear off after a while? I've never used one so I don't know. And also, how often does it tick?
Xenthos2007-12-03 21:09:18
QUOTE(Krellan @ Dec 3 2007, 03:56 PM) 461993
If it's a druid, you can expect them to sap. If they have low health, y ou can go for a damage kill without choke. Otherwise, you can wait for love potion to tick and then choke immediately, buying you those few extra seconds that they need to reject and regain balance and input the next command to enemy and then start their attack again. Or they'll likely try to move first. But if you don't use choke, they'll just be using sap most likely.

If they sap you, drop choke.

Okay, don't, as I don't believe it's actually intended to work the way it does, but yeah.
Shamarah2007-12-03 21:35:13
What Xenthos is delicately alluding to is that the sap affliction takes priority over choke, and if you choke a room while sapped, you will only be affected by sap's 0.5 second delay rather than choke's 1 second delay. It probably isn't supposed to do that.

For druids, I'd try to fight in a brumetowered room. This will no longer stop them from sapping you since they can do it on the ground now, but it will prevent effects like treelife and (I think?) swarm.

The only ways of stopping the demesne from hitting you are love potion and forcing them to unenemy you. If you want to use love potion, you'll have to not use drink, or it'll cure it. Here's a bit of theorycraft that I haven't actually tried out, but could work in concept (unless the person happens to have a trigger to re-enemy you):
1. Wait for pooka to gain control.
2. Wait 11-11.5 seconds, and force unenemy all right before it's about to tick again.
3. Then, when it ticks, force metawake off and choke.
Krellan2007-12-03 21:49:17
I've tried a double pooka instantly and it's not possible to get at least for me. I found that waiting 11.9 seconds is a fraction too fast and 12 seconds is too slow. anything up to two decimals inbetween ened up either too fast or too slow. Of course it's only a fraction of a second, but if they have a trigger to re-enemy then it won't work cause it'll be out that fraction of a second (since I tried this mostly with metawake).

Hrm Aeon also takes priority over choke if I remember right.
Arak2007-12-03 21:58:05
Here's another good tactic for you to try against dreamweaving druids:

Force embed hallucination Shamarah is great!

It raises morale and might even prevent them from embedding something else (though that last part probably isn't right)