Catarin2007-12-13 02:23:31
Recently (for the past few months) there have been a great deal of complaints regarding Celest, widely considered a successful org at this point, picking on Magnagora.
Celest has the most active players of any org in the game and quite a few of those players are fighters. A larger amount than other orgs anyway. So it can be assumed they enjoy combat. But if they engage in combat by raiding, they are griefing. Given the fighter population, even if every person inclined to raid only did so once a day, it likely would be considered to be too many.
Recently there was a lot of participation in mini-weakenings and that gave us something to direct our efforts towards but even that, which is entirely in the control of the defending organization given constructs are optional, was complained about loudly as being too much and unfair.
So what is a successful organization with a lot of players supposed to do in Lusternia to keep people entertained and playing? There is a lot of self-regulation in terms of raiding in comparison to how often it is possible TO raid. I have not participated in a general raid in a very long time and I find my enjoyment of the game lessening as I really..don't have much to do. Conflict quests are nerfed to oblivion. Interest in weakenings has waned quite a bit. Raiding makes other players not want to play.
So could someone please give some ideas for activities that a successful organization can engage in that will actually keep its players playing and entertained without causing another org to quit wholesale? Because I'm drawing a blank here.
The whole game is built around conflict and building up your organization and when you actually manage to do that, you're told to just sit on your thumbs because your opponents can't withstand it. I think there is an inherent game flaw here that could contribute the reason we see such slow growth. You're encouraged to be successful and your entire gaming experience is built around success in conflict but if you're too successful then you end up having nothing to do. Soon Celest's more prominent players will start dropping off and the cycle will turn but is that good for the game? To lose some of the most dedicated players out of boredom?
Just all seems a bit off.
Celest has the most active players of any org in the game and quite a few of those players are fighters. A larger amount than other orgs anyway. So it can be assumed they enjoy combat. But if they engage in combat by raiding, they are griefing. Given the fighter population, even if every person inclined to raid only did so once a day, it likely would be considered to be too many.
Recently there was a lot of participation in mini-weakenings and that gave us something to direct our efforts towards but even that, which is entirely in the control of the defending organization given constructs are optional, was complained about loudly as being too much and unfair.
So what is a successful organization with a lot of players supposed to do in Lusternia to keep people entertained and playing? There is a lot of self-regulation in terms of raiding in comparison to how often it is possible TO raid. I have not participated in a general raid in a very long time and I find my enjoyment of the game lessening as I really..don't have much to do. Conflict quests are nerfed to oblivion. Interest in weakenings has waned quite a bit. Raiding makes other players not want to play.
So could someone please give some ideas for activities that a successful organization can engage in that will actually keep its players playing and entertained without causing another org to quit wholesale? Because I'm drawing a blank here.
The whole game is built around conflict and building up your organization and when you actually manage to do that, you're told to just sit on your thumbs because your opponents can't withstand it. I think there is an inherent game flaw here that could contribute the reason we see such slow growth. You're encouraged to be successful and your entire gaming experience is built around success in conflict but if you're too successful then you end up having nothing to do. Soon Celest's more prominent players will start dropping off and the cycle will turn but is that good for the game? To lose some of the most dedicated players out of boredom?
Just all seems a bit off.
Unknown2007-12-13 02:51:15
RP. Come up with some more creative compitition than just raiding.
or, have some leaders betray the org?
or, have some leaders betray the org?
Unknown2007-12-13 02:52:20
QUOTE(Dyr @ Dec 12 2007, 06:51 PM) 465071
or, have some leaders betray the org?
Die in a fire, pls.
Acrune2007-12-13 02:53:52
QUOTE(Dyr @ Dec 12 2007, 09:51 PM) 465071
RP. Come up with some more creative competition than just raiding.
Thats not going to help with the boredom of the people who pk though.
Unknown2007-12-13 02:54:12
Talk with Mag's leadership OOCly and work out storylines, RP, and activities that you both can participate in and get something out of.
Estarra2007-12-13 02:56:09
QUOTE(Catarin @ Dec 12 2007, 06:23 PM) 465051
Recently (for the past few months) there have been a great deal of complaints regarding Celest, widely considered a successful org at this point, picking on Magnagora.
Celest has the most active players of any org in the game and quite a few of those players are fighters. A larger amount than other orgs anyway. So it can be assumed they enjoy combat. But if they engage in combat by raiding, they are griefing. Given the fighter population, even if every person inclined to raid only did so once a day, it likely would be considered to be too many.
Recently there was a lot of participation in mini-weakenings and that gave us something to direct our efforts towards but even that, which is entirely in the control of the defending organization given constructs are optional, was complained about loudly as being too much and unfair.
So what is a successful organization with a lot of players supposed to do in Lusternia to keep people entertained and playing? There is a lot of self-regulation in terms of raiding in comparison to how often it is possible TO raid. I have not participated in a general raid in a very long time and I find my enjoyment of the game lessening as I really..don't have much to do. Conflict quests are nerfed to oblivion. Interest in weakenings has waned quite a bit. Raiding makes other players not want to play.
So could someone please give some ideas for activities that a successful organization can engage in that will actually keep its players playing and entertained without causing another org to quit wholesale? Because I'm drawing a blank here.
The whole game is built around conflict and building up your organization and when you actually manage to do that, you're told to just sit on your thumbs because your opponents can't withstand it. I think there is an inherent game flaw here that could contribute the reason we see such slow growth. You're encouraged to be successful and your entire gaming experience is built around success in conflict but if you're too successful then you end up having nothing to do. Soon Celest's more prominent players will start dropping off and the cycle will turn but is that good for the game? To lose some of the most dedicated players out of boredom?
Just all seems a bit off.
Celest has the most active players of any org in the game and quite a few of those players are fighters. A larger amount than other orgs anyway. So it can be assumed they enjoy combat. But if they engage in combat by raiding, they are griefing. Given the fighter population, even if every person inclined to raid only did so once a day, it likely would be considered to be too many.
Recently there was a lot of participation in mini-weakenings and that gave us something to direct our efforts towards but even that, which is entirely in the control of the defending organization given constructs are optional, was complained about loudly as being too much and unfair.
So what is a successful organization with a lot of players supposed to do in Lusternia to keep people entertained and playing? There is a lot of self-regulation in terms of raiding in comparison to how often it is possible TO raid. I have not participated in a general raid in a very long time and I find my enjoyment of the game lessening as I really..don't have much to do. Conflict quests are nerfed to oblivion. Interest in weakenings has waned quite a bit. Raiding makes other players not want to play.
So could someone please give some ideas for activities that a successful organization can engage in that will actually keep its players playing and entertained without causing another org to quit wholesale? Because I'm drawing a blank here.
The whole game is built around conflict and building up your organization and when you actually manage to do that, you're told to just sit on your thumbs because your opponents can't withstand it. I think there is an inherent game flaw here that could contribute the reason we see such slow growth. You're encouraged to be successful and your entire gaming experience is built around success in conflict but if you're too successful then you end up having nothing to do. Soon Celest's more prominent players will start dropping off and the cycle will turn but is that good for the game? To lose some of the most dedicated players out of boredom?
Just all seems a bit off.
I personally haven't heard of any complaints about the raiding, and I don't believe any admin has said to "sit on your thumbs because your opponents can't withstand it". (The other thread regarding killing players over and over until they quit the game is another kettle of fish.) That said, I'm certainly open to ideas to give cities/communes goals.
What do players want? I hear a lot of people say they want more combat, especially 1:1 PK fights; however, there's really nothing stopping that from happening now. The sad truth is that some people who say that actually only want to be able to dominate someone else. They don't just want to just jump someone and win in a fair fight--they want to jump someone and decimate that person (even if it takes a couple of friends to help one do so). I'm really not sure how serious people are about wanting individual combat, but I suspect, when faced with the reality, it is not as prevalent as some people may imagine or hope for.
Do people want to build up their city or commune? Be able to add new features to their organization that are not available to those who can't compete with them? For example, maybe some constructs can only be raised if you have X villages.
Anyway, certainly we're open to ideas!
Acrune2007-12-13 02:58:35
QUOTE(Estarra @ Dec 12 2007, 09:56 PM) 465077
I personally haven't heard of any complaints about the raiding
Really?
QUOTE(Estarra @ Dec 12 2007, 09:56 PM) 465077
Do people want to build up their city or commune? Be able to add new features to their organization that are not available to those who can't compete with them? For example, maybe some constructs can only be raised if you have X villages.
Anyway, certainly we're open to ideas!
Anyway, certainly we're open to ideas!
I'm interested by that idea
Xenthos2007-12-13 03:00:26
QUOTE(Estarra @ Dec 12 2007, 09:56 PM) 465077
Anyway, certainly we're open to ideas!
Should I copy/paste the Ethereal idea again, or was that thing just rejected out of hand?
Either way-- there needs to be places where conflict is encouraged, that is divested from organizations, so people go there specifically for conflict (some quests there that give a minor personal benefit, that require fighting for it, etc.) There needs to be something to do that uses the skills that we've been given, that people can *choose* to participate if and when they want, without forcing others to also participate who do not want to.
Estarra2007-12-13 03:02:06
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Dec 12 2007, 07:00 PM) 465080
Should I copy/paste the Ethereal idea again, or was that thing just rejected out of hand?
Go ahead, as I don't recall what it is.
Unknown2007-12-13 03:02:29
what you need is more arena ques i think.
Forren2007-12-13 03:02:41
In my term as leader of Celest, we've gone from nightly 3am 50+ guard-dying raids to holding the most villages in recent memory (8!). Honestly, being at the top is boring. I log in, chat, fix whatever I need to, maybe raid for a few minutes, and leave. I definitely feel what Catarin is saying - I became very bored. I made a char on Aetolia, leveled to 80. Not sure what I -should- be doing with my time.
Unknown2007-12-13 03:04:34
like in the other games they have good arena events no one wants to go to somone city they are enemied to join an arena event so i think like IMP does it have an option like join que 1 for free for all join que 2 for team battle random locked teams or somesuch.
Unknown2007-12-13 03:04:49
QUOTE(Forren @ Dec 12 2007, 07:02 PM) 465085
Not sure what I -should- be doing with my time.
Get a life?
Don't feel obligated to MUD or anything. RL > Lusty, hands down.
Forren2007-12-13 03:05:32
QUOTE(Denust @ Dec 12 2007, 10:04 PM) 465088
Get a life?
I have one!
Xavius2007-12-13 03:05:53
QUOTE(krin1 @ Dec 12 2007, 09:04 PM) 465086
like in the other games they have good arena events no one wants to go to somone city they are enemied to join an arena event so i think like IMP does it have an option like join que 1 for free for all join que 2 for team battle random locked teams or somesuch.
Syntax: JOIN QUEUE FOR
------------------------------------------------
The Klangratch Tournies:
Free-For-All Queue: Xavius (Total: 1)
Slippers Queue: (Total: 0)
Freezetag Queue: (Total: 0)
Wargames Queue: (Total: 0)
Lusternians needed to begin an arena game: 7
Forren2007-12-13 03:05:57
QUOTE(krin1 @ Dec 12 2007, 10:04 PM) 465086
like in the other games they have good arena events no one wants to go to somone city they are enemied to join an arena event so i think like IMP does it have an option like join que 1 for free for all join que 2 for team battle random locked teams or somesuch.
I can't even read that.
We have cool arena events. We have Queues now.
Xenthos2007-12-13 03:05:58
QUOTE
An idea we submitted ages upon ages ago ("we" being Glomdoring and Serenwilde):
I think reasonings are explained within. There needs to be conflict that isn't tied to an organization, so there isn't a "OH MY GOSH, WE NEED TO DO THIS!," but which allows people to get some conflict when they desire it without having to run through a million stunstatueown guard-traps. This may not be the best or easiest idea to implement, but SOMETHING along these lines would be nice-- which inherently requires conflict to do, is not necessary to do, and does not hurt anyone to do (and does not give massive org bonuses). It's reward is also less important with the easier access to Astral for the Communes now, but it was more worthwhile then.
QUOTE(EventsPost)
The Sylvan Hunting Grounds
This idea has grown from the desire for low-level conflict-- that is, conflict which those who desire to participate in may, but in which nobody feels FORCED or OBLIGATED into doing by roleplay. Defending your organization's territory is an obligation, and thus does not fit the low-level category.
This will be discussing the Commune version of this area, though there should be one for Cities as well. The idea is NOT to stop all other conflict altogether, but to provide an outlet for aggressive desires and fun between those who have a taste for it in a place where it's not only acceptable but *encouraged* by roleplay-- a fun that doesn't aggravate or frustrate those that do not find it to be interesting at all.
The Commune version could be something like a primal Sylvan hunting ground upon Ethereal. While this place would have strong creatures (which will be discussed later), the main inhabitant would be one of the Dream Aspects of Wolf. An aspect of the Hunt, attuned to blood and desiring to see conflict and fight within that little realm. There would be an implication that there are other Sylvan "areas" where other Aspects of the Spirits reside, forests that are offshoots of Faethorn, but not directly controlled by Queen Maeve. This one especially would be a primal Forest, where those who do not have a bond to the Forests would find the forest rising against them (LiveForest effects against anybody who isn't in a Commune. The City equivalent would have Cosmic Ripple effects against anybody who isn't a member of a city and doesn't have a bond to the protection of a City Nexus). There would be an entrance in Ethereal Serenwilde and an entrance in Ethereal Glomdoring, but only a member of that organization could use that entrance-- as a member of the Glomdoring, I could not use the path into Ethereal Serenwilde.
This Aspect would have a small "arena" around itself, it at the center, a four-room diamond-shaped ring encircling, and an outer ring of another five rings for nine rooms total. No other NPCs would enter this ring. The Aspect would ask for Challengers, and should someone from either Commune be willing to bear this burden, a Howl would rise up in both Communes signifying that the Challenge has been offered! (You probably shouldn't hear this with loyalsays off). After the Challenge has been offered, the other organization has 10 minutes to pull together a force and accept it by entering the "arena". If they do not accept, after ten minutes are up a force of NPC wolves will attack instead, VERY difficult to defeat, perhaps two or three waves instead of all at once.
If you leave the nine-room arena while a challenge is in effect, you CANNOT get back in. You cannot teleport in after dying, you cannot tesseract, you cannot walk in. In fact, the exits in and out should close so that there is no way to walk out, either. You win, or you die. Should you win, however, you will gain control over a source of Power-- the Aspect itself will allow you to link, becoming loyal to your organization for 30 minutes, or until the next Challenge is offered, whichever comes first. While loyal, you could LINK to the aspect, drawing power for your own personal reserves. The Aspect would regenerate ten power every five minutes for a total of fifty power an hour, up to a maximum capacity of 1000 power (total amount could be subject to change, depending on how well this goes over and how much it is used-- it should be enough to supply those who fight for control of it). It would likely *never* fill up completely-- a source of power like that would be used quite constantly, and quite a bit of power would be expended to secure it for drawing, so it wouldn't really add a huge influx of power to the game, but it would be something that combatants would have some fun getting to use! The reason for this is that Wolf is dormant, slumbering. His Aspect would essentially be offering a small bit of the power of the Spirit to those who have proved worthy, power that replenishes over time.
Further, the Aspect would embody the Hunt in the realm-- you would be able to perform tasks for it showing your hunting ability (a way for an Honours Quest here, IF one is desired... searching for creatures that live in trees, or behind hidden passages through the undergrowth, or so on-- if an honours quest isn't desired, it could just non-Honours quests for performing feats of hunting). It would express its view of those who enter not only as being Hunters, but as being Prey as well-- there is no safety within this Realm. Even if you are the most pacifistic person within the Basin, the Aspect will look on with pleasure as you are killed. This is not a soft or easy place, and there would be no Laws regarding conduct within (except for things like "do not steal" which are more OOC considerations anyways). If you enter, expect that you will be Prey. The Commune Leaders would be expected to understand and recognize this.
This place would have no intrinsic bond to either Commune. There would be NO fae there, nothing that makes any commune feel that they *have to defend* it or *have to claim it*. It's an independant area, ruled over by the Wolf Aspect. Creatures within it would basically be strong, old creatures that aren't seen elsewhere. A few ideas presented so far are things such as sabre-tooth wolves, or rainbow serpents (these were presented as the living version of kundalini, the Serpent spell of lowmagic: a midnight black flying snake, that leaves rainbow afterimages in the air behind it as it moves).
This idea was crafted by Nejii, Anarias, and myself, and has been presented to Xavius, Hiriako, Shayle, and Nirrti for review. Each and every one has agreed that the idea is interesting and the need for low-scale conflict is *necessary*. Though the implementation was questioned by Xavius (he was wondering if another implementation might be more effective for encouraging combatants to come play without others feeling the obligation) the rest have all supported it. If it goes well, there could be other low-scale conflict areas added for lower-level people-- ways for people who want to fight to fight, without others being dragged into it who have no desire for such.
This idea has grown from the desire for low-level conflict-- that is, conflict which those who desire to participate in may, but in which nobody feels FORCED or OBLIGATED into doing by roleplay. Defending your organization's territory is an obligation, and thus does not fit the low-level category.
This will be discussing the Commune version of this area, though there should be one for Cities as well. The idea is NOT to stop all other conflict altogether, but to provide an outlet for aggressive desires and fun between those who have a taste for it in a place where it's not only acceptable but *encouraged* by roleplay-- a fun that doesn't aggravate or frustrate those that do not find it to be interesting at all.
The Commune version could be something like a primal Sylvan hunting ground upon Ethereal. While this place would have strong creatures (which will be discussed later), the main inhabitant would be one of the Dream Aspects of Wolf. An aspect of the Hunt, attuned to blood and desiring to see conflict and fight within that little realm. There would be an implication that there are other Sylvan "areas" where other Aspects of the Spirits reside, forests that are offshoots of Faethorn, but not directly controlled by Queen Maeve. This one especially would be a primal Forest, where those who do not have a bond to the Forests would find the forest rising against them (LiveForest effects against anybody who isn't in a Commune. The City equivalent would have Cosmic Ripple effects against anybody who isn't a member of a city and doesn't have a bond to the protection of a City Nexus). There would be an entrance in Ethereal Serenwilde and an entrance in Ethereal Glomdoring, but only a member of that organization could use that entrance-- as a member of the Glomdoring, I could not use the path into Ethereal Serenwilde.
This Aspect would have a small "arena" around itself, it at the center, a four-room diamond-shaped ring encircling, and an outer ring of another five rings for nine rooms total. No other NPCs would enter this ring. The Aspect would ask for Challengers, and should someone from either Commune be willing to bear this burden, a Howl would rise up in both Communes signifying that the Challenge has been offered! (You probably shouldn't hear this with loyalsays off). After the Challenge has been offered, the other organization has 10 minutes to pull together a force and accept it by entering the "arena". If they do not accept, after ten minutes are up a force of NPC wolves will attack instead, VERY difficult to defeat, perhaps two or three waves instead of all at once.
If you leave the nine-room arena while a challenge is in effect, you CANNOT get back in. You cannot teleport in after dying, you cannot tesseract, you cannot walk in. In fact, the exits in and out should close so that there is no way to walk out, either. You win, or you die. Should you win, however, you will gain control over a source of Power-- the Aspect itself will allow you to link, becoming loyal to your organization for 30 minutes, or until the next Challenge is offered, whichever comes first. While loyal, you could LINK to the aspect, drawing power for your own personal reserves. The Aspect would regenerate ten power every five minutes for a total of fifty power an hour, up to a maximum capacity of 1000 power (total amount could be subject to change, depending on how well this goes over and how much it is used-- it should be enough to supply those who fight for control of it). It would likely *never* fill up completely-- a source of power like that would be used quite constantly, and quite a bit of power would be expended to secure it for drawing, so it wouldn't really add a huge influx of power to the game, but it would be something that combatants would have some fun getting to use! The reason for this is that Wolf is dormant, slumbering. His Aspect would essentially be offering a small bit of the power of the Spirit to those who have proved worthy, power that replenishes over time.
Further, the Aspect would embody the Hunt in the realm-- you would be able to perform tasks for it showing your hunting ability (a way for an Honours Quest here, IF one is desired... searching for creatures that live in trees, or behind hidden passages through the undergrowth, or so on-- if an honours quest isn't desired, it could just non-Honours quests for performing feats of hunting). It would express its view of those who enter not only as being Hunters, but as being Prey as well-- there is no safety within this Realm. Even if you are the most pacifistic person within the Basin, the Aspect will look on with pleasure as you are killed. This is not a soft or easy place, and there would be no Laws regarding conduct within (except for things like "do not steal" which are more OOC considerations anyways). If you enter, expect that you will be Prey. The Commune Leaders would be expected to understand and recognize this.
This place would have no intrinsic bond to either Commune. There would be NO fae there, nothing that makes any commune feel that they *have to defend* it or *have to claim it*. It's an independant area, ruled over by the Wolf Aspect. Creatures within it would basically be strong, old creatures that aren't seen elsewhere. A few ideas presented so far are things such as sabre-tooth wolves, or rainbow serpents (these were presented as the living version of kundalini, the Serpent spell of lowmagic: a midnight black flying snake, that leaves rainbow afterimages in the air behind it as it moves).
This idea was crafted by Nejii, Anarias, and myself, and has been presented to Xavius, Hiriako, Shayle, and Nirrti for review. Each and every one has agreed that the idea is interesting and the need for low-scale conflict is *necessary*. Though the implementation was questioned by Xavius (he was wondering if another implementation might be more effective for encouraging combatants to come play without others feeling the obligation) the rest have all supported it. If it goes well, there could be other low-scale conflict areas added for lower-level people-- ways for people who want to fight to fight, without others being dragged into it who have no desire for such.
I think reasonings are explained within. There needs to be conflict that isn't tied to an organization, so there isn't a "OH MY GOSH, WE NEED TO DO THIS!," but which allows people to get some conflict when they desire it without having to run through a million stunstatueown guard-traps. This may not be the best or easiest idea to implement, but SOMETHING along these lines would be nice-- which inherently requires conflict to do, is not necessary to do, and does not hurt anyone to do (and does not give massive org bonuses). It's reward is also less important with the easier access to Astral for the Communes now, but it was more worthwhile then.
And I have to say I don't like the idea of giving a "successful organization more benefits above and beyond what their opponents have." It makes an organization feel good about itself, but (assuming that the construct is actually useful), it gives an advantage which the one that's behind has to somehow overcome, on top of all the combatants/influencers/whatever.
Catarin2007-12-13 03:06:29
I wasn't really saying the admin had stepped in and said anything. I was more referring to the playerbase and quite frankly, these days it's hard to go 10 minutes without someone complaining about a raid so I'm not sure how you've missed it!
I believe Xenthos may be right. There needs to be some sort of meaningful conflict that has nothing to do with orgs. That would at least give the people that just wanted some action something to do and perhaps leave less energy for raiding.
In theory constructs are optional but most orgs don't really treat them as such. They're just too good to not have up.
I believe Xenthos may be right. There needs to be some sort of meaningful conflict that has nothing to do with orgs. That would at least give the people that just wanted some action something to do and perhaps leave less energy for raiding.
In theory constructs are optional but most orgs don't really treat them as such. They're just too good to not have up.
Xenthos2007-12-13 03:08:42
QUOTE(Catarin @ Dec 12 2007, 10:06 PM) 465094
I wasn't really saying the admin had stepped in and said anything. I was more referring to the playerbase and quite frankly, these days it's hard to go 10 minutes without someone complaining about a raid so I'm not sure how you've missed it!
I believe Xenthos may be right. There needs to be some sort of meaningful conflict that has nothing to do with orgs. That would at least give the people that just wanted some action something to do and perhaps leave less energy for raiding.
In theory constructs are optional but most orgs don't really treat them as such. They're just too good to not have up.
I believe Xenthos may be right. There needs to be some sort of meaningful conflict that has nothing to do with orgs. That would at least give the people that just wanted some action something to do and perhaps leave less energy for raiding.
In theory constructs are optional but most orgs don't really treat them as such. They're just too good to not have up.
Constructs are optional (though they really don't feel optional), but they're also scheduled. I've been asking for something that isn't scheduled, so it can be done when people feel the desire to fight (instead of saying, "Hey, I feel like fighting, I'll go raid Nil to get some excitement," it'd be "Hey, I feel like fighting, I'll go do this other thing."
Catarin2007-12-13 03:12:34
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Dec 12 2007, 08:08 PM) 465096
Constructs are optional (though they really don't feel optional), but they're also scheduled. I've been asking for something that isn't scheduled, so it can be done when people feel the desire to fight (instead of saying, "Hey, I feel like fighting, I'll go raid Nil to get some excitement," it'd be "Hey, I feel like fighting, I'll go do this other thing."
Well, there would still be real raids of course because that's just how the game is set up. But hopefully most of the raids due to pent up energy and boredom would go away. I also agree. While some scheduled conflict is nice, trying to fit it all into neatly scheduled timeframes just doesn't really work well.
