True, nowadays I just log in and say hi and hunt a bit then log out again since we can't raid cause it's considered griefing, we can't -destroy- the organization cause the system doesn't allow us to. So meh...

You think it's boring now? If destroying an org was possible, I would like to see what fun you'd have after that. XD

And this is my last post in this topic, I swear, but most of us don't consider raiding griefing. It is when it reaches a certain frequency and when the people who are defending constantly are getting tired after months of it happening. I have played this game for a long time and dealt with my fair share of raiding, and it does go in cycles. I know it's not fun to not be able to raid whenever you want, but it's not fun on the other side either, and it needs to be player balanced at least in some capacity. Celest and Magnagora have both been through it now.

Someone also mentioned before, and something I agree with, is that forums amplify problems and blow them up to occasionally be something they aren't. Are some of us frustrated with raiding? Yes. Does it mean I hate the game and brood about it even when I'm not playing and dread logging in? Not at all, I don't really care that much. I think the Lack of Rants thread has gone from a place where you can just scream and tear your hair just to let out the stress into a place where every rant is taken far too seriously, and people have started using it to rant about things every time they happen.

I'm told that, way back when, Mag was the dominant one and was crushing Celest. What would the current Celest players be doing now if Mag had been able to -destroy- Celest?

Playing Hallifax characters.

I wish we had more players, PLAYERS, not alts. I want Ackleberry to return, and Gaudiguch and Hallifax to be released. I'm moving my lucid to Hallifax and my Taedae to Ackle :/

The underlying problem that you're talking about is that you feel Celest has nothing to do besides raid, and the raiding is making life miserable for the raidees. I suggested some things that I have seen work well in other games. You don't want to try them. That's fine. I made the suggestions for your benefit, and they're yours to take or leave.

Having said that, I still don't know what the big objection is to you/Celest's leadership getting together with Mag's leadership OOCly in some medium and saying, "Hey, let's come up with some ideas that allow for Mag/Celest conflict that won't make you miserable."

I think things have been exaggerated, due to forum rants. Celest raids when they want. Mag raids when they want. Everyone reading this should realize that Magnagora hasn't exactly rolled up into a ball and died. Didn't they try to off a Supernal the other day? Raids are constant, on both sides. Some people are simply overly sensitive and use forums to blow off steam and attack players oocly, rather than in game. I hate that forums gives these individuals that sort of power.

I'd rather our focus remain fixated on skillsets and various imbalances, rather than the talk of new mechanics to encourage conflict that not many people want. Sure, they SAY they do, but honestly - does anyone believe that? For fear of sounding redundant, I won't go into the org-constructs thing, but I believe it's all about people wanting to be on top. If they were, they wouldn't bitch about everything and you can't construct anything around that mindset, so why bother?

The only Time i've ever gotten angry about celest raiding was during a weakening when we had 3 people online me and 2 novices.. their raiding group was i beleive 6-10 people somwhere around that.

Shouldn't get mad at that. Its unreasonable to expect an org to pass on scheduled conflict just because there aren't any opponents around.

Yea but is it unreasonable to expect you guys wont kill our random novice hunting earth completly unaware of the issue?

Maybe it's more of a 'mad at the circumstances' not the people involved kind of mad? I mean, it is kind of an annoying thing to have happen. I doubt he really thinks that Celest should have taken a look and gone "Meh... maybe next time" and went home or anything. At least I hope so, cause that's unreasonable, and so would being annoyed at the raiders themselves. However, it's perfectly valid to be annoyed by those circumstances, IMO.

edit: Or maybe he is.

Anyway, this goes back to warning novices that the Planes are indeed dangerous, I think. A quick tell or yell or even CT saying, "Heads up littleguy, there be raiding in your area, you might just be attacked!" wouldn't be amiss if you notice a novice hunting during a raid.

I'm not mad at the people -mad at some people maybe- cus they did cluster hump a novice. but more mad that most of the time when celest raids it has more raiders than we have population novices included.

Wait, remember when you had your Mag player, you left Celest because Mag was on top, then you left Mag (or suicided the lil guy) because Celest was back on top. So you shouldn't say much in this, simply because I have seen you on a losing side and your outlook is a complet 180 from what you are actually saying now.

You are 100% correct on this one, Ildaudid.

Yay I need to add it to my sig, show it to Malicia all the time and swear that it wasn't used in this context at all, but about me talking about all other types of things

One of the things I've found is that sometimes I get tired of fighting the same opponents or the same types (basically the same org). But I'm one of those who find the strategies, tactics, and improvisation most fun to determine outcomes. The outcome is less important to me rather than having to make a hard decision on where to fight, and how to fight it. So when you fight the same org, you come to expect the same strategies and you end up having to return with the same counter strategies. Fighting other orgs allows you to think differently.

Peace treaties are not a requirement of a trade treaty. When you make a trade treaty alone, then it still leaves options for individuals to attack and create the conflicts. But as has been said, we're spoiled. Celest wants guaranteed alchemy from everywhere, even if they could get it without a treaty. Treaties really don't require no attacking clauses. That's why there are multiple treaties, each for specific things. If alchemy is what you want, you make a treaty to get that. And it helps create tension and conflict by individuals, which then creates the political conflict. The peace clauses just destroy opportunities for conflict. Admittedly, it's probably necessary to have 1 peace treaty since Lusty tends to develop around 2 orgs vs 2 orgs when people need to rely on enchantments/alchemy.

Problem with Celest v Seren back then was the total 5 Seren raiders max. One failed supernal attempt cause there was a either a traitor or a metagamer. I feel like Seren has less snugglers and at the very least, most of them have more experience now and such a conflict wouldn't end as poorly. What's been said time and time again, is that when you attack everything, you have to get unenemied to something. And while normal fines are managable, denizen fines are not. I think you should do away with getting enemied to denizens altogether, but I'm guessing that's how you're able to make them call for help. If there was a way around that, I'd say that's the way to go.

Where have you been the last real life year? Mags constantly kill novices when they hunt on water. Not that I'm saying killing novices is ever excused, but you make it sound as if people from Celest only raid Earth to kill newbies, and specifically target them.

Could easily name a few Mags/ex-Mags who would go up to water, kill a novice, take the corpse, and run.