Approach it from a different angle. If you don't have to worry about the feelings of other players, what does the average Celestian want to do? What does the Star Council want to do?

Raid mag 'til it goes away?

That's the problem. Your players want to raid Mag til it goes away. Shouldn't that be your character's desire and not that of your player? Why would your player want an entire org to go away?

I know Xavius didn't specially ask about what your players want to do, but its kind of messed up that it seems like it would be the same answer.

My character wants that. I want success for my character

If I didn't have to worry about other players feelings, I would like a situation where it was possible to actually conquer another organization. Take over their lands, their resources, and put up the banner.

Actually, when you first started out killing finks, you met people beloging to different orgs and maybe be friends with them..

But then, time happens.. you get killed on water while hunting so you want to be stronger and then you train and then you start killing people.. and dying, and killing and dying..

Until youve been in this cycle so long, one day you wake up in the basin not really thinking anything about other orgs except that..

And then the desire of the character become the desire of the player..

for he is him, and him is he..

Did this make any sense? hehe.. prbably not..

I don't suffer from this syndrome. My OOC friends from the Wilde do not seem to suffer from this syndrome. For the last couple weeks, I believed that having an IC/OOC barrier that looked like torn plastic wrap was Magnagora's problem. Celest is jumping on the same boat.

Catarin, et al, have unrealistic expectations.

They expect to get all or most of their enjoyment in-game out of the org conflict. That is not possible, and the org conflict wasn't designed for that; if you don't enjoy other parts of the game, then you'll just have to do something other than play when there is a lull in the conflict. It can't be there constantly for you.

Secondly, some of them apparently expect to "win." Sadly, this is a persistent game and there can be no denouement. There's no rewarding end-game for you. The destination isn't important and you'll never get there. Enjoy the godamn ride.

Hi!

This thread is very very long and I'm not certain if anyone's responded to this, but have you been playing Lusternia over the past year or two, Mr. SAW? Celest did fine without alchemy before Glomdoring, because they were chummy with SW.

Secondly, please drop the 'Celest should burn Seren' stuff. Celest went to war with SW and the complaints were extreme, same as with a few very loud Mag players atm. Raiding upsets people. A few players object to being raided or to be more specific, being raided when it's inconvenient for them. I don't think the answer for Celest is finding more orgs to fight. It's about player perception in regards to Lusternia. Seems the loudest complainers have very high standards that others are not going to feel obligated to live up to and why should they? I don't exactly have an answer and I'm not going to stress myself out looking for one.

P.S. @Forren - You speak in such general terms! Not all of Celest is eager to go beating up on Glomdoring simply because they can. I like Glommies.

They own the boat, yet rent it to Magnagora, and let them fly their flag, do not be decieved.

That was actually one of the questions I asked myself when I was thinking up Den's character. If it got to the point that we could eliminate Magnagora from the Basin, would he support that? At first, when he was younger, yes. But as he got more into the history of the Basin, what the world had been like before the Taint, that turned into a "No..." followed by lots of metaphysical thinking that boiled down to "If the Emanations of pre-Taint et al. saw what they were now, would they be happy with it?". More time passed... I'm not sure Denust qualifies as an "average Celestian" (interpret that any way you choose, I don't care), but he agrees with Catarin's post about how Celest shouldn't pound on Mag to the point they're seen as common thugs. The Taint was, essentially, thrust on them unwillingly and they only embraced it AFTER they were changed in the first place. If they retained their original personalities, etc., they would probably have all tried to kill themselves by now.



I agree with some of what you say: you can't win a game that will persist even if you're not there... just like you can't win real life. You can succeed, and even then "success" can be defined any way you like it, but there's no "winning". But I don't think Catarin and the other Celestian players who have chimed in expect org conflict to be "all or most of" their enjoyment. I also don't think anyone, no matter the org, could reasonably expect or believe for a second that "It ... be there constantly for you ."

Yeah, you guys use it a ton, we're making a fortune. Very enterprising of us.

This is the paradox- lets say we set up a "shadow plane". The shadow plane is, room for room, a mirror image of the prime basin surface. On the shadow plane, nobody loses exp from dying, and dying will send you to the shadow plane nexus instead of back to prime.

On the shadow plane, you can seize a city, by demensing a certain percentage of it, or killing certain denizens, or whatever actually makes sense for it to work with. You can hold it for X amount of time, or maybe raze the whole thing to the ground, or whatever. You can "win" on the shadow plane.

There's no gold to be had on the shadow plane, and nothing there yields experience. The destruction of your own shadow city has no adverse impact on any other plane what so ever, or any character in any way. In fact, there's no reason to be on the shadow plane other than to destroy your enemy's shadow city or defend your own.

Even if you do all this?

Players will still feel compelled to defend, and then get upset when whatever org currently is the strongest stomps all over them repeatedly. People would still complain here when their shadow city gets destroyed by a 3 am raid. Jerks will still look for a way to make it as not-fun for other people as possible.

I'm confused. If this -was- true, why would this thread exist? Although I could see an argument that -conflict- is most of the enjoyment, not org conflict specifically.

Slight hijack, but does anyone know what was supposed to happen under the old Achaean war system when Shallam fell? Sarapis pulled the plug right before it happened.

Perhaps you should read more carefully? I know that people just like to assume without really reading everything but eh. I'm not sure I have to justify that I do in fact engage in other activities than ones based around conflict. For example, I don't write in order to attempt to kill my enemies via papercuts....

The thread exists to discuss what precisely *orgs* are supposed to do after a certain level of success. In terms of game mechanics or game intent or what have you. What is an org supposed to rally its people to do? It was pointed out that a good deal of the game mechanics are structured around conflict in general and org conflict in particular. Making conflict the primary focus of any org. But at a certain point, no more conflict can be supported and if there are more people who want conflict than what can be supported then boredom starts to set in. That's pretty much the purpose of this thread. Or was anyway before it was derailed.

You know, thinking about it...with our current sytem, successful orgs are supposed to do what the other orgs do. You have weakenings every 15 hours, the same village revolts everyone else has, the same wildnodes everyone else has...what changes?

I thought the plug was pulled because they didn't know what to do?

The number of people in the org who want more to do outside those pre-scheduled events who find it via raiding.

I stand by my post, even though I only read the first and last posts and just posted randomly intermittently, but thank you for my reading level assessment.

And with that, I am going to catch up on my sleep after a total of 10 hours since last sunday.

(I still think lack of rants thread should be deleted as a test run, btw.)