Woof?

In all seriousness, the different orgs almost do have their own language... the races that spec for that org are common enough in that org:
Celest - Merian
Serenwilde - Elfen
Glomdoring - ...Elfen
Magnagora - Common. They get shafted because Viscanti, Kephera, Humans, and Trill are the only races without a racial language. Illithoids don't count since they can understand anything, so you may as well speak common to one.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Planar communication already makes me cry. Don't limit it even more.



Well... The difference would be that new players would be less likely to go there which means that you'd have yet more areas that no one REALLY goes to (read: Undervault). If they foster the belief that they should EXPECT to be killed on their planes, then why would a newbie, to whom dying is probably terrifying, willingly go there? But the ironic thing is that the beings there are really perfect for them to learn; to learn influencing; to learn bashing; to learn a LOT about the planes themselves!

Newbies can't conglut and to them, the experience loss hurts just as much if not more than an experienced player, because the experienced player has already accepted it. Likely newbies haven't. The game is infinitely better now that I don't have to pray, if only for the fact that I come alive again in seven seconds.

So, I agree. It doesn't have to be 'free-pk' dangerous OR strictly avenger-protected. Self-mediation is what you've all ENCOURAGED us to do. The issue comes from the fact that we're stuck in some middle ground where raiding is all but impossible, you're saying it's supposed to be free-pk, and the only ones who are likely to be hurt from it is new players?

Yes and no. I like the idea of getting rid of the common language.

Then for each org, pick one racial language that becomes freely learned from citizenship. Probably elfen for communes and merian for cities. Make these languages permanently learned by the time you graduate your collegium. Channels would remain language independent, since they're sort of combination thought-sound.

But back to the original topic...

Look at what combatants want. I imagine it's an environment where there's enough chaos to keep interesting, with tangible benefits and the actual satisfaction of having killed an opponent as opposed to the aforementioned 'artificial' win of the arena.

The +stat quest area. Make sure the benefit is enticing enough for people to want it. Even those who wouldn't be into PvP - let it be a lure to get them involved and interested, too. Make the area offprime, so no Avechna. Design the area with an eye towards demesnes, blocking and other such details. Perhaps change it so that the benefit remains on the last 3 (or pick some number) people who completed it, so that you retain a reason to keep stopping people from completing the quest if one person manages it, or to allow a small group of people to work as a team helping each other. I'm sure there's some sort of stat/effect combination that would appeal to every combatant. No karma loss PK and +2 all stats, for example.

And when that proves to be not enough to handle all of the active combatants at a given hour, there's the battle arena thing Catarin mentioned. But again, it should have real 'death' xp loss, even if it doesn't result in praying. No risk, no adrenaline. Make it a nonstop free-for-all area where you can gain points by accomplishing tasks, but also for killing other people in there. Make deaths kick the person out of the area with grace, xp loss, defs loss, but no actual Tea and Biscuits with the Fates. This allows people from a given org 'release' of sorts to kill other people of their own org. If you're in there, you know the risks, and it's all fair game.

Between these two I think that would provide enough alternative conflict that isn't org-based, providing individual incentive, that the combatants don't get bored while not eliminating the opportunity or value of org conflict. Overall, this would provide more combat and less 'kick them while they're down'.

Or just add an option to set arena events with "real-death" factor so the loser lose exp and the winner gains exp like outside the arena, but without having the avenger count those for pk status.

Except that lacks incentive. Right now, raiding enemy orgs has incentives as far as RP goes, doing actual numbers damage to the enemy org (power), killing org-aligned NPCS, disabling/destroying constructs, weakening village loyalties, and other such things.

The arena with 'xp loss option' has little draw. I don't think it would get used that much, aside from the odd duel here and there.

Unfortunately, constructs do not. Specifically free discretionary, and insanity for the enemies. While the latter is broken, the effect and intention there would detract from off prime conflict. I'm sure you were a player once. You should know how hard it is to raid in flux. But that's why I came up with the replacement power for that specific construct that I feel is a really good idea.




To Forren's posts. Treaties decrease the opportunities for conflict. That's part of the reason why I feel multiple treaties are stupid. That and Seren really gains nothing from the treaty so it's stupid. But you decrease Celest's own opportunities for more conflict by making peace treaties with 2/3 the available orgs to fight again. Also, org change to a weaker org and you'll have all the conflict you want.

Lusternia calls for treaties. Hello alchemy?

I believe that somehow if Celest was weakened, that you'd see a massive increase in the conflict of the game. One team has all the power right now and they're sort of squishing everything. I know in another MUD I used to play... there was a massive upset in power a while back and there was a TON of conflict created from that.

One problem that I have with conflict is that I can't afford to lose experience. I don't gain it that fast as it is and I don't have the time that some do to keep bashing my character up in ranks. My fault, perhaps, or RL, or whatever, but still... I think at least some of the players here can understand and sympathize with that.

But yeah, if you could weaken the main power right now, ie Celest, then you could have something happen which might just bring the interest back up in Lusty quite a bit!

I think the undervault is more used than you give it credit for. Obviously it's not full of players, but then neither is astral (except at approximately 20:00 GMT every other sunday).

I think Myndaen worded that badly - he was talking more about the quests. The area itself is certainly used.

I live, breathe, and eat the Forums. No turning off the best place in Lusternia, please!

As for the conflict of conflict, I really don't like it when orgs write up alliances/agreements with one another. Serenwilde is supposed to hate New Celest for the Taint, yet write up a treaty with them. Serenwilde is supposed to hate the Taint because it was the root of Ackleberry's disappearance and Glom's downfall, but band with them against Celest? The only org I can't find a fault in is Mag: they planned to use Glomdoring for their own purposes, used Serenwilde against Celest, and always unceasing in their defiance of Celest.

Remove treaties, please. And yes, imply to newbies' heads that anything NOT PRIME IS DANGEROUS AND NOT PROTECTED BY AVECHNA!!!

Man, I hate when people mangle the histories to get "supposed to"s like that. It doesn't work that way! It shouldn't work that way!

Because every org needs to keep the other orgs looking over their shoulders is why every org interpretes themselves as being juxtaposed to all others.

On the notion of "building empires" and such, why is this such a bad idea? In theory you could make this inordinately expensive and let's say Celest could build an outpost of somesort. Plenty of power and gold invested (golds sinks FTW) and it would take a while to be built, and of course other orgs could storm in and kill off the workers and slow down production.

This outpost wouldn't end up being much more than releasing a new area and would largely be for RP purposes, maybe having a fraction of the income a village would bring in. Perhaps not even consider it "enemy" territory to avoid high end experience loss for raiders, but still let celestians conglutinate. It would be another area that Celest claims, but we'll say it's outside of their jurisdiction or whatever as far as policing it with guards.

Firstly, this would promote conflict only for an org that is confident in sustaining said conflict. If you're not a powerhouse, how would you be expanding? Secondly, the losses from not defending would be minimal. The experience losses from even the smallest defenders would be minimal. And most importantly, the other orgs such as Serenwilde or Glomdoring might see this as Celest removing nature and trying to build more cities and occasionally work themselves to prevent it.

Only an org bored from lack of conflict would attempt it, and the tasks of working to stop them would be spread much thinner across the less powerful orgs.

I've read this entire thread twice and I'm not sure what you mean by "easily gaming a system." If it's an area specifically designated for PK, like some kind of World Colliseum where you may enter at any time and death kicks you out of the area with Grace, XP and Def loss, etc, and the only way to go in is to AGREE to a set of rules that flash by your face, then what is there to game/abuse? Maybe it's a difference in semantics, but I'm not sure what your point is here. So people get to PK for free. They don't lose anything, the victims don't lose anything. What's to game?


No. Not in the slightest. Not since angels, demons, Supernals and Lords were hard-linked to the flow of IG Feat Power, coupled with the mentality that it is the organization's Gods-sent imperative to gather power, as set in the histories. Not since they became entwined with each city's history, novice advancement tasks for guilds, collegium quests, and places of worship and meditation. So no. The playerbase has declared that they are NOT open PK, regardless of what the admins originally designed the areas as. Attacking Cosmic planes nonstop interferes with all the above activities, most of which I think add immensely to the game, and is tagged as "griefing".


Amen to that.



From reading this thread, I'm going to summarize what I've seen so far from the players and admins respectively, then put forth what I feel would do the best job of addressing all the problems.

Players want:
-Somewhere that is NOT tied to organizations.
--The above is defined as:
-----No loss of nexus power
-----No change in general citizen status (as with constructs)
-----Not on organizational territory, including but not limited to: Villages, Cosmic/Elemental/Ethereal planes, Orgs proper, etc.
-----Does not contain denizens loyal to any org.
-----Does not contain "bashing" ground.
-Somewhere with tangible loss in the shape of XP, Defs, whatever
-Something that is NOT scheduled and can be done spontaneously

Admin response:
-Planes are "open" PK
-Certain areas were designed for this already and are not being used as such.

Player rebuttal:
-Planes are tied to their organizations via nexus power, invoking an IC "obligation" to defend.
-Admin has not been clear on the rules regarding certain areas, therefore the player culture dictated the actions/rules for the areas.
*Side note, I really have to stress point two here. It's part of what really drew me to Lusternia in the first place, the promise of players being able to shape the world around them. Please don't take that away from us.

My proposed solution:
-A coliseum type area, roughly 15 rooms. NO MOBS, except maybe Gatekeepers who are invincible (therefore not bashable) and are OUTSIDE the arena.
-Avenger does not apply in the coliseum
-The coliseum may be entered at any time for free
-You may only attack and be attacked by one person at a time in the coliseum (maybe toggle this every couple of hours for people who want group vs. group).
-Death in the coliseum kicks you out of the coliseum (possibly into your org?) with XP loss and def loss, just like dying normally, except there is no pray for salvation. Something along the lines of "You slump in dejection as you suffer a crushing defeat and a small portion of your essence drains away." It would have to be a fairly sizeable penalty for the "tangible loss" element that people seem to want, but not so big so as to discourage using the arena. MAYBE minor grace like the arena. Coliseum still uses up herbs/potions/power as though it were outside.
-Rewards or incentives for winning. Could be gold, could be XP for killing people, could be minor blessings (though blessings might get a little sketchy. I personally prefer gold or XP). In fact, if we wanted to make this a continuous-run free-pk area, you gain gold and xp for every kill that you score, but then lose xp for every death you suffer. Would make for a nice balance and could be a little bit like gambling with your character's life.
-Some proposed miscellaneous ideas:
-----Have entry gateways from inside org territory, you get kicked back to the gate that you entered from when you die. The reasoning here is thus: Easily accessible, and you can't get ganked upon leaving the coliseum. Would also solve the Gatekeepers being bashed problem: They're on org territory and thus covered by player attitudes with regards to said territory.
-----In order to enter, the Gatekeeper presents you with the rules and a player must AGREE to them, so that there is absolute clarity with regards to how the admins expect the area to be treated. For example: Jarbok, the Coliseum Gatekeeper tells you, "The rules of the coliseum are thus: You may kill and be killed without Avenger penalty, what happens in the Coliseum stays in the Coliseum, so that you may kill members of your city/commune. Any laws that go against this are bull excrement and the admins will slap anyone who tells you otherwise. If you AGREE to these terms, you may enter. Otherwise, go away."
-----Have tiers (floors of the arena) by level (?) so that lvl50 or so people who want to have some pvp action aren't squooshed instantly by demigods. Again, this could also be togglable every few hours.
-----On the topic of changing Coliseum conditions, it would be imperative to send a VERY clear warning that the rules are about to change and that people should leave if they don't want to follow the new rules. Alternatively, kick everyone out (with no penalty) when the rules change.
-----With regards to rewards, maybe minor XP/Karma gain over time merely for being in the arena.

EDIT: Closing comments, I can not stress enough how important it is for the admins to be absolutely 100% clear that such a thing is NOT to have organizational ties or anything even remotely resembling them. Breaking the rules should be made into an issueable offense (which I know may make you admins groan and reach for an icepack, but I think it's for the best) to set up strong disincentives against breaking them.

Anyways, what I forsee from such an arena is me being able to team up with some friends from say Glomdoring and Serenwilde and seeing how well we can stack up against a Mag/Seren/Celest combo or some other permutation thereof, getting to play around with skills.... My vision is basically a place to screw around and have fun, but still have a little adrenaline in that if I lose, I actually lose something. Plus, timing out in arenas is annoying. I know if such a coliseum were ever released that I would make fairly heavy use of it.



I think that anything organizationally related is going to run into problems because people will feel obligated to go defend it, mostly because such an outpost is so expensive to create, blah blah blah. I have seen CDFs and GDFs for "dereliction of duty" to Cosmic planes. I really don't want to see the same happen with what is supposed to be a PvP outlet, hence my push for something that is VERY clearly removed from all organizational ties.

Not sure about 15 rooms. Consider just demesne, for example. If a mage/druid went in while no one else was present and then demesned the entire place (doable if it's only 15 rooms), then it's a very strong advantage. They should have advantage in demesne, but the place should be large enough (and probably with more than one entrance) so that one demesne holder can't have you in their area of power the moment you step in.

Also, reinforce personal benefit from participation. While I'm sure there are those who would fight in there just for an alternative or new experience, there needs to be some reason to choose it over raiding. Not so much that raiding disappears - because org conflict should not be made to disappear. But make it worthwhile enough that it provides an outlet for people seeking PvP without making all PvP about raiding another org's territory or jumping someone while they're hunting/harvesting/questing.

I really liked Catarin's proposal of points going towards a certain list of benefits.

Hello, no fighting is not included with alchemy. You limit yourselves as well as others since Celest is the strongest org and other small orgs have more careful leaders who don't want to poke the big bad bully even though some individuals like to fight against them like Celina and Incabulos or even myself at times.

Besides, there is a black market. Not everyone follows trade rules. People need gold. People need alchemy. You pay, you'll get it. I couldn't tell you how many Celestian enemies have traded with me.

It's quite simple really. Catarin specified "battling for individual rewards with no ties to orgs". Player X goes in to fight with player Y. Player Y agrees to lose so that Player X can win. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam. There is the same potential for abuse here as there is with the combat rankings honour, except that presumably the rewards would be greater.



I don't understand this point. My definition of open pk is a situation in which there are no hard-coded consequences for killing other players. There is no Avechna system off prime, therefore it is open pk. The IC obligation to defend is surely a different point entirely? Feel free to disagree.

With the XP loss, that would seem less likely. I suppose that depends on how the 'points' are scaled. I would base them on level^2 x might or some such, myself.

Edit: Perhaps do chess ranking style, average out a number based on who they've killed and who has killed them. Use that number to scale points. I'm sure there's some mathematical way that would be considered sufficiently representative of their supposed value as combatants.

I assumed, as I think did Estarra (and Tervic too?* "They don't lose anything, the victims don't lose anything") that Catarin's system had no exp-loss penalties for death. If that's incorrect, you have a point.

* Actually, it's quite clear later on in his post that he doesn't think it! In which case, I'm not immediately sure how it would be gamed either.

I suspect a mixup of different ideas. I don't know if Catarin had it in mind that there would be death-like losses. I think this is where the confusion came from.

edit: I need to learn to read.