wow a lot of people abuse denizens then, since I lost count the amounts of times i got attacked by people, you included, while hunting things like gorogs or ur'dead and the likes.

as to your claims about cubix and the likes see PM.

note I said abusive not yet issuable... :>

Its obvious abuse yet you cant exactly WARN someone your goin to jump them or wait for it to die before attacking without risking escape.

Shield smash was changed, I do believe. It just removes armour status, it doesn't destroy the shield. Thieving is (usually) against social mores and, instead of suspect, can come with things like ostracizing.

Neither of that makes letting an NPC circumvent Avenger while you hold them down any better, though. Like I said, being attacked while fighting a denizen is 'Okay.' It's 'Being locked down while fighting a denizen with the intent to let the denizen get the kill' that's the issue. Maybe that wasn't your actual intent here, but it is what you ended up doing-- just sapping and letting Bob go for the kill.

I'm not entirely sure how a demesne would factor into this-- it would probably depend on what effects you were using and what exactly you did with it.

Why is everything an issue? What happened to the days when people said "Wow, that sucked, remind me not to do that again". Anisu used the seduction exactly the way it was supposed to be used-- to get a denizen to attack someone. Why does it matter if she stayed in the room or not? Why is it different from summoning someone to a supernal? Because that's enemy territory? Would this trick be acceptable if it was used on a deinzen in enemy territory?

People need to calm down on the issue button. Was it a "cheap" move to have a denizen attack someone? Yes, a cheap move that the admins put in the game. Anisu even said that she didn't intend for Bob to kill her, just to help her fight. That shouldn't even matter though, since that's the whole point of the ability.

EDIT: Apparently the issue is only then that a denizen can attack you. Personally, I don't see a problem with this. Prime needs more good combat, and Avenger is there to prevent you from ganking, not to prevent every single kill that happens outside enemy territory. I'm half tempted to throw out a HUP...

A Supernal is not on a plane protected by Avenger. Using this tactic in, say, Faethorn, is legitimate. It's not exactly "fun" for the person involved, but it has been used. Avenger avoidance, however, is Bad. Period.

Summoning someone into a Supernal where Avenger doesn't notice is only marginally a step up from doing it on Prime, since it's exactly the same tactic with the same suspect results.

Uhh, no, it's not. It's "meant to happen" off Prime. Avoiding suspect on Prime is issueable, because you're not supposed to do it. It circumvents the entire POINT of Avenger.

Then it should be settled the way all problems are settled in Lusternia-- add hard coding and change/eliminate the ability to seduce denizens. Because everything else is issueable.

Actually, summoning into Avatars/Supernals is not issueable, because it's not on Prime and it's not organizational territory with guards/totems/statues.

I think you just have to admit that you're trying to draw a connection that doesn't exist.

It is wrong to use a denizen -for the kill-. As this prevents avechna from taking note. The different is she was in the room and was mainly hindering, which let the denizen do the kill. If she were focused on damage it wouldnt be as bad.

Basically because she was hindering instead of doing the kill she let the denizen do the kill, which avoids avenger even though its obviously her fault.

I'm trying to draw the connection between a skill that was used exactly the way it was designed, except in this instance it was wrong, while other times it is right. Since that is the case, either 1) it needs to be right all the time, or 2) it needs to be wrong all the time, so therefore eliminated.



Then it's a problem with Avenger, so He should have more restrictions put in place to prevent killing.

How is this different from jumping someone while hunting and then locking them so the denizen kills them? Because it's happened to me a few times.

It isn't. That's abuse of Avenger, and is issueable. Intentionally dodging Avenger is a Bad Thing.

Let's say I have a skill that hits everyone in the room who I have declared. On Prime, it will only hit the people I specify. Off-Prime, it will hit everyone in the room. The rules are different between Planes, due to Avenger. That's just the way it is. Asking for coding additions is fine, but saying, "Hey, it's okay because it can be done" is not. It's quite clearly gaming Avenger, when you let a mob kill a person for you while you lock them down so there is no escape.

Then how do we judge if it was actually abuse or not? As in Anisu's case, she had intended to cudgel, but Celina died before that had happened. You can't say that was intended abuse, or anyone who jumps anyone while they are being hit on by any denizen (bar fae, angels, demons etc) would be abusing Avenger.

1) If there's a history of it, or 2) If they're obviously going out of their way only to hinder and let the mob take the kill, really. From later clarification in the thread, it seems that there wasn't a whole lot of time for Anisu to really do anything else past the sap since Bob is a bit of a beast, so it'd likely be judged on whether or not Anisu did it more than once. If, however, it was someone using aeon/anorexia/sap/whatever to keep you from healing, and just reapplying as you frantically tried to cure it and get out-- that's pretty obvious.

And it's not really any denizen barring the three types you listed (or even any non-Prime denizen). It's not an issue in territory you're enemied to, because there's no Avenger protection there. If it's not there, it doesn't exist to be circumvented. The issue is NOT having an NPC help you (that's OK, even if a bit annoying)-- the issue is using an NPC to avoid getting suspect, while fighting and killing an opponent.

Wow, then the issue box should be chock full of things that never get reported...

Like I said, it depends on whether it's actually bypassing Avechna. Most people don't usually try to skip around it-- so why would it be chock full?

umm... supernal is about four or five plane away. and um.. summon can only occur if you are on same plane. how is that an 'avenger avoidance'?

No one said summoning into a supernal is avenger avoidance.

Summoning into denizens on prime that kill your target while you just hinder IS Avenger avoidance.

However, this particular issue avenger wasn't involved because it was an event. Now, some might say "it's alright, she didn't break any rules." However, I was a part of the event...it was a no xp loss event. I lost experience because of Anisu. She circumvented the rules, though I don't think that was her intention.

Oddly enough, the Issue I filed still hasn't received a response. Admin must be having issues with it too

I wonder how many people here realize that I had no need to bypass avenger during an open pk event.

Anyway some of you need to get more consistent in your argumentation and decide wether you find it bad because of avenger or bad because of getting a denizen to help.