they have it in athletics which all warriors have access too.

Block (general party security)
Lesser version for skrimish is tackle (could use an improvement)
Numb (for going in)

Possible ideas:

Charge (charges into the room and sends everyone on enemylist unbalance for ~1 second)
Unblock (opens exit blocked by other warriors.)

Tahtetso already have a group skill. Tidesweep. In a non-tertiary skill, even. Polevault (also in the primary!) helps with anti-skirmishing or runners, since it's a way to bypass obstacles and hit someone when they hit and run or leave when about to die, all without having to know which way they went.

Ninjakari already have a group skill. Chaindrag. There's that other one as well that attacks multiple people.

Shofangi, I really need to get more familiar with. If they lack group-combat oriented skills, perhaps they'll get them during the spec reworkings. I couldn't speak here with any knowledge.

By your definition, beckon alone is sufficient to make Celestines count as 'group friendly' - why don't these? Yes, I'd like to see more skirmish options. I'd also like another set of options - tanky/damage. I definitely don't think they should be found together in one character in the amount of usefulness I'd want to see the two come to.

As for the argument 'every other group does blah', that's not usually a valid argument. There's a lot of situations where one archetype or even one guild does something no one else does. This is a good thing, so long as it doesn't result in imbalance. Variation, less identicalness. Otherwise, every org would have exactly the same guilds, exactly the same skills, all given different names.

Why can only glamour bards drop maelstrom? That's so group-use fundamental, we should put that in the primary skill so that tarot bards aren't so lacking. Or why can only Hexen Shadowdancers set up an on-entry affliction advantage? That's so fitting with their choke strategies... we'll put that in Night so that Astrologer Shadowdancers aren't missing out. This is the logic you're presenting.

first of all polevault is not a group skill, second of all 'tidesweep' is not an active role.

There's a diffrence between having the same options for tactics and the same skills. Two diffrent matters, lets say for your example Shadowdancer Hexes vs Astrologer. Hexer does indeed have better affliction rate and can leave some in the room, but unable to boost others. Astrologer can boost their allies, their group skill is therfor boosting others & choke vs Hexes has afflict on entry and choke.

Its all about flavor.

(in case you missed the point, their battle preperation is hex the ground or boost allies/yourself and choke)

To be honest, I do really well as a psymet monk. We get better resistance buffs than acro, another bit of regeneration to stack on top of harmony/enchantments, and a nice strength/dex boosting skill which impacts my katas immesnely. I think once the rest of the abilities are brought up to par, ie doublepain, mindfield, suspendedanimation, and maybe a few more utility skills to flesh out the skill (Psymet is small.. Really small) it will become a haven for anyone that wants to play a bruiser type fighter. I personally see a psymet monk hitting harder and dealing more wounds than his acro counterpart, but not being as nimble or capable of dodging blows completely. Anyone else agree with this view point?

Edit- Heck, I wouldn't even mind small things like gaining more sustance from food buff. Let me know if anyone has any small ideas to flesh out the skillset.

The problem with psymet is that it lacks springup, which means that ANYTHING that prones you will cause your kata to break.

And Lusternia has a LOT of things that prone.

Hmm.. I do agree that you hit harder then us, but you have also runes and alot of skillsets that boosts your strength. So i'm unable to make the judgement if its the psymet that helps you alot immensly.

I do think glauco is tankier then you as Lobishigaru vs your Krokani with the his regen is more then yours from psymet.

However.

This is about active tactics for group situations, not about making skillsets useful ( that is realy another topic, it just happend to snuck in here)

Yeah, you are right. Sorry for the derail.

(If was Lobo, I would hit as hard as Tzu and regen better than Glauco.. Hrm.. ))

Hmmm, on side note would be neat if guilds got their own forum to discuss changes ;D

So much easier then writing letters & messages ingame.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.



If you think polevault doesn't suit the concept well enough or isn't useful enough and needs changed, I have no idea how to discuss this with you. Polevault is a nice skirmish skill. Got a runner? Polevault him.

Me, I think acromonks (and bards) should be the principle skirmishers. To say that in another way, I think acromonks, due to frailty, are better off squaring against one opponent or few weaker opponents. Maneuverability, a key aspect of skirmishing, belongs in acrobatics. If we put such skills in the main skillset, then we take away from what acrobatics should be doing.

Psymonks, due to being hardier and dishing out more hurt (if/once the skill gets beefed up), belong in the main battle group. They're the ones who should be shoulder to shoulder with warriors, serving as long lasting damage-dishers. And if a couple of Psymet skills are tweaked, they'll have sufficient survivability to make their presence telling. One on one, they get hindered too easy. In a big group, they're less likely to be targetted for such. If they get SuspendedAnimation worth using (see link for discussion about its faults), then the Psymonk stands a very good chance of dealing a bunch of hurt and then fading away when they get targetted. That serves a rather useful purpose - they did their damage, they didn't die, and they have a chance to pop back in and go again if the fight drags on, or if the situation is close enough to an end where they can return early and eat the balance loss. See? Group role.

By way of comparison, bards should also find benefit in skirmish. After all, they're the original handspring/backflip/somersault/etc class. Putting skirmish emphasis on acrobatics helps serve this function for them as well. Drop maelstrom, toss off some colorspray, and get out of there to find runners and stragglers - and avoid getting squished by angry enemies. Or pick someone vulnerable to your particular offense and shove them out of the main battle, go one-on-one with them with your... actually, Tarot/Ecology needs to be a better choice for them than they are without unduly tipping the scale for Tarot Guardians or... well, Ecology needs a boost for druids, too.

Skirmish does not mean 'pull someone into your group'. I think that's what you were referring to as 'ganking' skills. Nor is skirmish a 'group combat' role. By definition, it's when you break from group combat. The trick is to make this generally ill-advised course of action worthwhile. I see that the skills you suggested have the function of pushing one enemy out away from an enemy group, hence skirmish, but making them work through block/walls/shields/etc is just too overpowered. And again, puts too much of the purpose of Acrobatics (maneuverability) into weapon skills.

There's a reason so few skills go through shields. Monks are already notorious for not being so bothered by them. You want to make this worse? Walls -should- slow down an enemy force. That's what they're for. If you give someone the ability to tear one down, carry off an enemy, then turn around and do it again to get back to their group (with an enemy!), how is this not overpowered? Because that's what will happen.

Let the skirmishing happen after the mass battle has joined. Use the skirmish skills to pop in and out of the fight. Or use them in one-on-ones. Push someone small out and kill them, rinse and repeat. Smack runners as they tumble/run away. This is where skirmishing should happen. This is where skirmishing actually provides benefit.

The -only- good thing I see about your proposals is that it creates a way to destroy double blocking, which there are too few means of doing. But again, if it is deemed that needs to be created, I don't think it belongs in a weapon spec.

Current Polevault is a pindown/chase skill, i wouldnt title it skirmish. The reason why i wrote the idea to bypass walls is to make dynamic group combat. Which means, your able to seperate big groups into smaller ones.

I already took this up, but have to repeat..

If you see someone get seperated away. There is a decision, shall you spare one man to assist the one that got pulled away, or let him be and handle his own?

You can't just rinse and repeat, unless the opponents doesn't do anything to handle the attacker.

It's reactive means in group combats. Compared to most other group combat means its just not pro'active. (proactive is walls, shield, blockers, target order, etc which it mostly boils down too)

Its not a ganking skill, you can't polevault the target into the same room you came from (which is usualy where the party is at) and you can't pull someone into the same room if you have someone with you.

How it would boil down is, if you try to polevault someone into the main group, you will have to seperate yourself from it. Which makes you an easy target for group to attack.

Your able to skrimish with the new abilities yes, but the counter is to handle the attacker. He's most likely to be alone skirmishing, consider if you polevault, ninjakari, shofangi ability is ment to seperate from the group.

You can always walk out from the attacker after you cure his first kata, which is slow since it is first form, send an defender to help assist the one that is getting targeted by skirmishing.

Or just plainly let him handle his own. How is this overpowered? (I dont understand why you complains it behing overpowered when all you have to do is spare someone to assist the one getting taken away, with someone from your group. Since they arn't ganking abilities there mostly likely wont be another raider at his position.)

Our room. Their room. Another room.

I leave our room, enter their room, carry off someone into another room.

That victim either runs back, or stays and fights.

I immediately leave the other room, enter their room, carry someone into our room.

Gank.

And shields, walls, blockers... none of that can stop it.

Hmm.. that is a good point... tho

Perhaps its time to not stand one room from eachother with the groups and make use of more of the assets you have?

Possible Solutions:

Only able to use the skirmish ability every ~10 seconds.
(Power cost wouldn't solve it cause high tier would still be able to use it often.)


If blockers stopped it & if you could look into a room to see which blocker was standing near what entrence to identify who was blocking what, it be viable. Then you can skirmish the blockers.

(If walls or blockers stopped it, it would get nulliefied and we are back to the camping game.)

And if we do that, what purpose would these skills you propose have?

Also, what's wrong with the mass groups colliding? I don't see a problem with them, myself.

lack reactive group battles

its all proactive, have blockers, walls, target list
chop down the first
chop down the second.
chop down the third.
etc..

This is to spice up group battles

I'm not quite sure I follow your meaning. But if we get rid of the large bodies of combatants coming together at once, then we reduce a lot of the efficacy and usefulness of the multiple-enemy-hitting skills, thus removing a group role of certain classes.

It would actully boil down to variaty of tactics.

Also, not sure if you're familiar, but hexes would also play havoc on your proposed skills. If they didn't hit an enemy popping into the room, people with Hexes would be upset. Rightfully, I'd think. People with the ability to create rubble might be upset. Carcer.

Heck, choke would suddenly become even more powerful, if our combat model included this concept.

No?

Hexes, Rubble, Carcer will still find its use, it just means you can't instagank someone with them.

The hexer will have to choose better which room they hex (room beside you, or just shove the hexes on the skrimisher in the room he lands in.)

Rubble, have to choose again where to put it. Perhaps putting it in same room is a bad idea, but in the room ahead of you, might catch someone.

Carcer will still find its use i'm sure in main battles or someone going in and assist the one that got skrimished and puts up carcer, Now the skrimisher is in trouble, he will have to somersault, tumble out.


And do please explain, for the first time we would have abilities to seperate someone out of choke, how would this make it more powerful?

some thoughts you might have missed. When skrimishing the skrimisher is most likely to fight a demesne & his opponent in another room. So he still have disfavor of fighting.

Every skill that you freely bypass with this one ability weakens the usefulness of those abilities. Any abilities that your proposed skills do not bypass makes your proposed skills less useful, perhaps even pointless - as soon as they're implemented, everyone will make sure their combat groups have one or more of these effects in place to prevent monk-barge. Then we're back to the same situation.

Try to consider what Forren suggested. The simpler the changes, the more likely they are to be accepted. Small changes at a time. Keep them mechanically simple, when possible. Consider all skills, and the players of characters that use those skills. There are so many holes in these ideas of yours, and they step on a lot of toes. By implementing these you would effectively be downgrading a lot of other guilds' skills.