I'm sure a fair number of you know what prompted this thread. I don't want to get too caught up in the specifics.

To what degree do players with a history have the right to play the game as they choose? Like, say Daevos wants to join Celest. Without regard to whether or not Celest would or wouldn't let him in anyways, to what degree should the players of Celestian characters feel obligated to let him in? Is it a true right of every Lusternian to play in whatever org he or she desires? Does there come a point where too many offenses have been made against an org for a chance to be given out of anything except the goodness of the rulers' hearts?

Well, if Daevos stopped griefing Celest for some long period of time, we as players shouldn't mind him wanting to switch to Celest. Now, if Daevos was just a griefer, an ass, and a generally unsavory person, we as players should tell him no. That's what the admin ask us to do, regulate our griefers, and I can't think of a better way to regulate them than telling them no in the first place.

Of course that's what my thought process would be if I was a Celestian and Daevos wanted to join. I still don't know what this is regards to, though. Does Daevos really want to go to Celest?

The whole point behind being able to make as many alts as you like is the fact that any player can join any org they wish. However, not every character can do what he or she wishes.

I find that an interesting question. Though I have not played Lusternia very long, and so anything I say is nothing more then my opinion and how I try to act in life period.

As to the example you used in regards to Daevos and Celest. This is how I see it.

Daevos spends 120 years doing nothing but raiding Celestia and Water plane and New Celest. Killing thousands of people and the Supernals dozens of times over and over. Because of this long period of offensive actions towards Celest, I believe that Daevos forfitted his right to be a citizen. No one is every entitled to living in a city, well...okay in RL you are but yeah not the point. In Aetolia, I was an aide to the Ambassador for Bloodloch when I was an Infernal. I did not induct anyone who spent more then 20 years fighting against the city I called home. IF, and I do mean IF, they truly wished to repent and join the city, then they had to earn their entrance. I believe the same should go here. At the same time, I am the type of person that believes nothing is given for free in life. You get what you work for. Sometimes it takes a while to gain it and you have to deal with a few years of getting nothing or losing everything before you get what you earned but that is life. To say you are entitled to something...is like saying fair is treating everyone equal. Fair, as I learned in 5th grade, is treating people the way they deserve to be treated based upon their own actions.

Just because Daevos spent 120 years working to destroy Celest however, does not mean that he shouldn't be considered. In some ways it would be a very good helping hand to Celest. I mean based upon honours of Daevos...he is a very important person it seems. Haven't met him yet though. But anyways, he should be spoken to, taken the time to consider all possibilites and make sure that everyone is aware that there might be a time of say probation or a restraint on his ability to gain power.

Anyways, not sure how coherent that is but to those who understand it, that is just my opinion. It and 5 dollars will get you a coffee at starbucks.

I have no idea what prompted the thread.

But my answer to your question is that I think it is a right of every Lusternian to play in whatever org he or she desires. HOWEVER they should understand that their character's past should influence the way they are treated in said org. Using your example - if Daevos really wanted to join Celest, he should be let in. However, he should not expect his character to be trusted or allowed into positions of power and/or responsibility. And he should realize that some of his new fellow citizens probably hate him and will treat him poorly.

That's just my opinion on the question you asked. I have no idea what the deeper issue here is at all.

Personally, I think you lose your 'right' to join any organization when you persistently make an ass out of yourself and grief or antagonize that org beyond belief.

There's plenty of people in that category who're trying to join other organizations at this very moment, too. All I can say is, well, good luck!

Considering the time, effort and often RL money invested in some characters, that's quite a narrow view of the subject. Making a new alt that has the same capabilities as your high-levelled, omnitrans main is an unreasonable barrier for entry into a new org on the terms on which you might want to play the game there. For that reason, we should be a little understanding towards other players.

No, they shouldn't be able to get their character into an enemy org whenever they like. But they should be able to do so within a reasonable span of time (ranging to RL months) and a reasonable degree of effort (that isn't tedious chores designed to bore them out of the attempt).

EDIT: Actually, I'll emphasise this: creating tedious chores to dissuade a player from joining an org is lame, lame, lame. Say yes or say no, but don't try to make the game a chore for anyone.

I don't think it just stops at griefing or just plain annoying the org you are trying to join. Each character's actions is a reflection upon their org, and if one person is griefing/being an ass anyone at all, it is just really saying that their org is in support of such actions.

Many people have spent quite a bit of money on multiple charachters doing just that though.

That's not the point, just because some people have doesn't mean the rest of us should have to.

Players should have the option of joining any organization they choose, so long as they're willing to work around reasonable obstacles (fines and such). Only in cases where a player has stolen from the org, should they be barred from joining. Those are the kind that can really hurt an org.

Unless, of course, this is the case:

"Now, if Daevos was just a griefer, an ass, and a generally unsavory person, we as players should tell him no. That's what the admin ask us to do, regulate our griefers, and I can't think of a better way to regulate them than telling them no in the first place." Not that Daevos is, of course, but I agree with the sentiment.

QTF. If you don't want to deal with trouble makers, don't put yourself in the position to.

Would you mind PMing me as to what started this, as I am curious and would really like to know.

My opinion is that people play the game for play. I really do not think someone could go "too far" to be forbidden to join orgB as long as they were willing to repent justly. Especially in the Daevos example. He would be an amazing boon to the Celest military (assuming in our example that he would be fighting with Celest). Daevos was never really overly agressive on us beyond what RP dictated of him as Warlord, and I think it would be catagorically un Celestian of us to forbid him entry, especially as we as OOC players need to look outside the box and see that there is a player behind that sob of an enemy of ours that we all love to hate.

I also agree that old players do have some sort of special rights, in that they have been here for some time, they have made memories with us and thusly we have a lot of ooc beef with them. I think the older players should be looked at differently, as it is hard to leave a role that has been established in our character.

You havn't heard? Xavius wants to join Ackelberry but they won't let him because of all those "stupid bear" remarks he said in the past.

I take it you speak as one who has leveled up many alts to 80+ and bought them several trans skills? If my choice was between sticking with an org I was bored with or going through that process again - I'd quit. I don't think we as a community should be eager to winnow out established players because we don't like them.

naw, I could never do that. I myself prefer to have one charachter and am old school, and thus don't like the idea of alts.

But I know of other players who have done that.

Having spent money on the game does not entitle you to joining whatever organisation you wish, throwing role-play and in-character motivations out the window. If you absolutely cannot have "fun" unless you are in this or that org well, tough. You should've thought of that before you made such an effort to make that organisation's life hell. Go make an alt.

Setting up a barrier of entry is a compromise; it means forcing someone to commit and be nice to other members of the commune. It helps ensure that, after being let in, he won't just hop out again; and it helps ensure that he's not joining for a frivolous reason; and it helps ensure that letting him in has some benefit to outweigh the cost of letting someone who is most likely a polarising, irritating asshat.

I don't believe someone should be given special treatment based solely on the length of time they've played Lusternia. What is important to me, in such a case, is what they've done with that time.

Were they the leader, or a high-ranking member of an organization diametrically opposed to yours? Did they bother to actually roleplay conflicts, or just look for excuses to annoy people? Have they left an indelible mark on Lusternia's culture, politics, or history?

The list of questions could go on... In short, I don't honestly believe that everyone is entitled to join organizations. They're certainly entitled to make the effort, but if they've consistently played in such a way that a group doesn't want them (permanent enemy status, for example), said group should feel in no way obligated to allow them in just because they're an "old" character. In fact, I actually believe that those characters should be held to higher standards than the applicants of twenty-odd years who haven't got the same established, recognized personas.

(If that's at all confusing, please let me know and I'll clarify. After Sunday, I should be a bit more lucid. )

Ahh, I know what this is about. It's a little bit different than entitlement vs right here, I think, but someone else can open that can of worms.