I...agreed with this.

I never said such people are entitled to special consideration: only that we should have some understanding for their position, the amount of time and money they've invested in a character, and perhaps some empathy about how we ourselves might feel in the same situation. It's not their right, but it might just make us nicer people. Why set out with the mindset to "force someone to commit", to "put up with a polarising asshat", to assess how they stand up to a high standard such as "leaving an indelible mark"? How about... giving another player a chance to play the game as they like?

I don't have an opinion about the specific case that issued this thread. But I don't like the intransigence I'm hearing here in general.

I would hope that any player who has played long enough to really really piss off an organization would know that their character can't just waltz into that organization and play nice just because they want to. And I hope that organizations are able to realize that people do have changes of hearts and allow them chances to make ammends.

Of course, I don't know the situation that prompted this thread, so that's all I can say.

People always have a chance to play the game as they like. Whether or not they are willing to deal with the possible fallout or repercussions of their actions is another matter entirely.

Why does their want to play the game "as they like" (Often, this means guild-hopping like madmen and cruising for the "best" skills to kill people indiscriminately) supersede someone else's desire to play the game as they like - by staying in character and acting according to role play values. Or even by trying to protect an organisation from someone who will come in, cause a lot of bad blood, and then probably leave soon afterwards. For an old, established character, changing allegiances should be a major rupture, not something you do on a stupid whim, and the majority of cases of people being denied entrance into an organisation are just that - someone with virtually nothing to contribute (Often a fighter who thinks his ability to kill people compensates for being a nuisance otherwise) trying to join on a whim. It seldom happens to characters with a better past than that, and it seldom happens to people who try to be nice about it and recognise they're not entitled to anything. Hell, it never happened to Verithrax-the-character, and Verithrax was a serious asshat.

Don't lie.

Anyways, I really don't think time or money invested in a character should be a determining factor. I guess I'm trying to feel for the balance between concern for RP and concern for a player's OOC enjoyment. You curb griefers, often at the expense of RP, for other people's OOC enjoyment of the game. You allow small scale raids for RP and your own people's OOC enjoyment, even if it might bother other people. We curb theft. We kill quest mobs. It's a very hit-and-miss system we have going on.

Now, in this particular case, I'm fairly certain that the player believes he or she will enjoy the game more if he or she gets into the org he or she wants to get into. It's really like Daevos getting into Celest, though. It's the archetypical enemy looking for admittance. I'm having trouble coming to terms with this. My gut reaction is that merely asking is out of line, and I hope the org's leaders stand firm on this. On the other hand...we're talking about another player's enjoyment, or at least perceived future enjoyment, of the game.

I don't think the line can be made strictly at was an enemy/was not an enemy. I've been enemied to Celest, Serenwilde, and Magnagora at one point or another. Celest enemied me for ganking Nyla in Stewartsville during a revolt. I don't foresee any trouble moving Xavius to Celest. Magnagora enemied me for semi-frequent raids, including one fairly epic Xavius & Cubix vs. 15 Magnagorans. Three planes and four hours later, I ended up enemied to every Magnagoran guild. I think joining Magnagora would involve several hoops and a long waiting period. Then there's Serenwilde. Am I a permaenemy there yet? Anyone from Serenwilde want to guess my odds of joining if I asked? I wouldn't presume any sort of courtesy or entitlement if I wanted to move to Serenwilde. In my mind, I've closed that door, and I understand.

Is this completely out of line? Am I not working on the popular wavelength?

I'd say nothing is impossible, even from the Serenwilde view. I've seen Perma-Enemies unenemied and admitted. I've seen people who raided us constantly suddenly being buddy-buddy (not before leaving again though... maybe a bad example).

But you are right that there would be hoops to jump. Players should know that their actions have consequences and just because they want to try something different doesn't mean that they can simply forget everything they've done. Just as if you wanted to join the Serenwilde, you wouldn't be able to just forget your involvement in Glomdoring and expect instant acceptance. But it could be done over time, which I hope is more gratifying for players, knowing that they've earned their place.

The problem is that even if you just sit in your city and rat, someone is always, always going to have a problem with you.

It's simpler to say that when your character doesn't fight much. The consequences of your actions are never likely to entail permaenemying, because people tend to enemy less for RP reasons (not that that's a good thing). You're also less likely to want to switch to an org for skills you like (which is not a bad thing).


I don't lie to make points.


You wouldn't be entitled to get in. However, I would hope that the player community would, out of OOC courtesy, create some route to make it possible, even if it required waiting and RP trials. I would also hope that they would not feel you had it coming, had to suffer the consequences of your actions by never getting the chance to play what interested you, nor that they were entitled to come up with the most dreary, onerous tasks possible to keep you out. Mainly because I hope I'm not playing with people with that attitude.

Agreed.

Couldn't you have chosen someone else to use as an example.

Right, no Daevos.

How 'bout that Narsrim guy. Heard he wanted to join Glom for the 20th time.

You were picked cause you're so awesome is all.

No, actually. You were the only archetypical enemy big enough to make the comparison.

Also, minor rant: People who think it's acceptable to backstab someone and then posting a log of said backstabbing for the world to see are mentally deficient and should be automatically disqualified from ever holding an elected position, present or future.

So I, as the character Verithrax, was not entitled to never be zapped or attacked or anything... but you would hope that, out of OOC courtesy, people would not react in-role to what my character did?

Especially when it is a time for opinions to be cast, so they are given, AND there's a request by the others there to have the log posted FOR that group! Not the whole world, just that group!

Even if their perceived future enjoyment depended on it?

What's even better is that you know it's you.

Guilty conscience much?

You're not very good at making things not obvious.

Yes, I voiced my opinion on how the situation was being received, however, I do not see large amounts of 'backstabbing'. Disagreeing and pointing out things that were CLEARLY said, yes.

And yes, I posted the log to the Court. The clan, not the world. The Clan which was invited to the meeting, and it was requested by members of said clan to have the log posted.

No, no guilty conscience. I don't see how I've done anything so horrible to warrant such.

No, you're not entitled not to be zapped, attacked, etc... There is, however, an OOC courtesy about those things too. Your character may be hated enough so that, IC, he'd warrant being hunted non-stop or zapped to level 1. But if anyone did that to you, we'd call it griefing, because it would waste innumerable hours of your time and restrict your enjoyment of the game.

Likewise, although characters aren't entitled to join whatever org they like, completely barring them from one for IC-legitimate reason restricts the player's enjoyment of the game and asks them to waste an investment of hundreds of hours and/or dollars. Therefore, common courtesy suggests we should leave the possibility open. It would be really unfortunate to penalise prominent leaders or fighters for playing their org affiliation to the hilt. What did Daevos ever do to you?!

Thank you for picking an apt analogy!