At the same time, one shouldn't be able to raid just to drop suspects. That kind of counters the whole Avenger thing (if, when they attacked you, the suspect dropped for example while defending).

It's an issue with the whole auto-declare thing, I think. The declare thing when it comes to defending is just weird.

Also, taking a vengeance for somebody else shouldn't happen - voluntary or not. I've seen pacifists take a vengeance for combatants before. I also got the joy of involuntarily taking a vengeance for Kaikazu today. Was just standing there and an Avatar that was sent by Zacc to kill Kaikazu ended up killing me and Ariadne instead.......
He didn't even have vengeance on me, and i had PK CAREFUL ON. Yay for being peaced for the next 8 hours now.

...how does that happen?

It's a bug. We are looking into it.

not sure if this matters any more but i stopped playing IMP because everytime i walked out of my city id get jumped by 5 stavennites.

I'm satisfied with the way Avenger works as well because the issue system would just be too annoying. The only problem I have, feels like a dead horse already. It's the problem where conflict should be directed at other planes, yet at the same time is nearly prevented. It's come to a point where I feel that prime raids are actually easier than off prime raids. Clearly Mag and Celest are still raiding each other on cosmic planes, but I think we'll all agree that ripple is by far the easiest discretionary power to handle. Plus, what makes it easier to handle is the fact that both sides can use demesnes. Communes -had- faethorn, which is now nothing because we moved away from conflict quests. Respective ethereal sides are both unmeldable by the opposition. What this means is that both sides are forced to fight inside a demesne of the defender. Not only that, Seren is unable to avoid a choked demesne at any point in time they raid. Both sides also, end up dealing with liveforest. Then there are also shrine powers.

I've already made a suggestion that the respective constructs that allow free discretionary powers as well as insanity for enemies, and level 3 regenerations, be changed to conglutination on the respective plane for all citizens of the construct's org, insanity for enemies, and level 3 regenerations. I think this would be a good step in the direction of encouraging off prime conflict again and not just scheduled every few day timed events known as weakenings.

I also feel that now that Faethorn is no longer the immediate center of direct conflict for the forests that both Ethereal Seren and Ethereal Glomdoring should be meldable by the other side.

They shouldn't be meldable, but you should be able to (and should have been able to for ages now) break demesnes without being able to change the terrain type.

There are definitely some problems with the system-- problems that I don't think were meant to work the way they do (ie, having to declare someone who is attacking you, not getting suspect removed when you're attacked in certain places). But, I can't remember the last time past 2 days ago that I actually saw the Avenger brought out in full force. If people used it every time they had the chance to, we'd all be in big trouble. But for the most part, people don't seem to use it unless it really is unnecessary griefing.

BUT, that doesn't mean that if someone does decide to exact their vengeance, it's suddenly unfair. Everyone who gets suspect knows that they are in a situation where the victim could potentially take out vengeance on them. If they don't, fine. If they do, then well, it was coming.

Bottom line, if you get vengeanced, you earned it. Learn from it, and don't repeat it.

just out run them or don't leave that way, you learn I was a taekyon and trust me they tried that with me.



Yeah the bolded part is the most important thing I think. There should be no way in hell you have to declare someone who is attacking you. It gives the attacker such an advantage on being so many steps ahead of you it is stupid. On top of that if you are dumb enough to declare, and they win, they do not get suspect.

I think that is a major problem. And watching some people sit places and knowingly abuse this bypassing of the avenger system is a little repulsive. Especially when they do it to novices who are just trying to help their orgs, not knowing the full rammifications of what may happen, then someone bypass avenger through some means and bam novice is now dead, had to declare to fight back, someone else he was allied with killed the guy right before novice died, Now novice ends up with a bully tag and possibly a vengeance tag, from the player who was abusing the system in the first place...

Perhaps we should start issuing people who are abusing the system-- they technically haven't "broken" any rules, but it's still a misuse of the system. The hole in the system may still exist, but we can try to manually plug it up on our end.

I did that one time because I was confused about something, it was on a different matter but basically this;

I defended Revan for some thing or another, I think it was during the whole intro of Undervault. Well I was jumped by a group of people and never gained a suspect on them. I issued because I wasn't sure what was what.

Turns out, if you defend someone who has declared another. You automatically have declared them too. Now, this is the tricky part. If ANYONE has defended the person Revan first declared. They now have open access to you to kill you without any sort of problem.

So in simple terms
Jimbob is somewhere and all of his ORG has used the choice defend Jimbob
Billy tells me to defend him
I defend Billy
Billy for some reason attacks Jimbob
I end up (by defending revan) declaring Jimbob AND any of the people that have defended Jimbob.

Now I can be killed with no recourse by Jimbob's people/whole ORG (If they all defended him)



-----

That was how the oneriri (sp) explained it to me.


Now I hate that, but on the topic at hand, With someone attacking you and you having to declare them to attack back, EVEN if you have defended someone is still stupid. But I don't know if issuing would solve it.

Hopefully Estarra can look into that aspect of the matter.

Make it so if someone attacks you, no matter what you do NOT have to declare them to defend yourself.

Also make it so that when defending someone who has attacked a person. That although you may end up "declaring" the person as well, that your declare time is very short in comparison to the declare time of the one who actually typed declare Jimbob.

Anyways I know it sounds confusing, but that is what the Avenger basically is. Confusion. If he is here to stay, make it so he works harshly on people trying to get around him through small loopholes, or possible close off these loopholes if at all possible


I guess trying to issue yourself would be one thing, but I wouldn't want to... say Issue Catarin, if she attacks me and I have to declare her to attack back... since well that wasn't her fault.

One thing I -hate- is how I'm enemied to random bashing places...like the observatory, people can run in and gank me and suffer no consequences because I'm in "enemy territory." I'm on prime and not in Seren territory. Serens shouldn't be able to attack me without getting suspect. It's not like I was in a village.

I've always been of the opinion that being enemied to a village/place should have only the denizens of that place attack you, not the people who own the village at the time. So, if you were enemied to Estelbar, the Furrikin guards would attack you but you wouldn't be enemied to Serenwilde.

That would make raiding villages way too easy.

Yeah, that definitely shouldn't apply to villages. But Celina's sentiment is quite fair, for once. Getting enemied to Arthar'rt and then getting ganked without suspect suuucks.

This is not totall correct. You do not need to declare aggressions to fight back. The exception is if the person has open-season PK against you due to you being in enemy territory where you don't belong.

I have had a couple of instances where people attacked me in neutral territory where I had to declare to fight back. I can't remember the situation off-hand, so that's probably not very helpful, but I think it had something to do with them defending someone I'd declared. I think that might be it - you have to declare to attack back someone who is defending?