This is what I don't get.
I killed/helped kill 10 people. So what?

Assuming I play 6 hours a day, that's a 5 day ban/maggoting/whatever.
So, I made you pray. Big deal.

Harden up, princess.

Ok. Now that you've gotten as far as "harden up, princess" I think we can all safely turn that back onto you and declare this thread over.

I've no idea why you people are so 'yay, Avenger'.
Look at it this way: the people with high level and credits are the only ones with conglutinate. Low level people do not.
Surely, if everyone was a griefing scumbag, you'd have a bunch of level 30/40's standing around weeping because as soon as they tried hunting essence, they'd be killed into praying every 5 minutes.

You're forgetting the fact that only people with high level and credits have any real reason to go off-prime outside of org territory.

We are 'yay, Avenger' because we have seen people do a lot of stupid things. Giving anyone free reign to do what they want and counting on them to police themselves is a bad idea. We've seen things like that fail, and some of us watched this system develop and remember why it was put in place to begin with. You also can't except other players to police them, since it's a completely OOC issue which can't be easily addressed in an RP environment.

Basically, when suggestions like yours have been tried, they have not worked. People have to be policed.

I'm sorry, but the forced death and praying that Avenger gives, as well as the XP return, should have been more than enough to stop people going overboard without the 5+ hours of peace attached to it.
If you kill someone twice, you'll die twice. This is fair.

I'm not saying remove Avenger altogether.

On the one hand you're saying that the people you killed, and frankly yes you had to have been declaring these people or having pk careful off to build up that kind of list, should harden up about having to die and pray because you felt like killing them but that you shouldn't have to harden up and take your extra punishment for instigating unwarranted (mechanics wise) PK with them. Is it harsh to have to to avoid combat for so long because of a few gleeful fights where you were just attacking anyone and everyone? Yes. It is unfair? No. Will you be so careless with your killing in the future? Most likely not.

I'm sorry, but 2 deaths is in no way comparable to a 30 hour/5 day punishment.
The problem I have with it is the peaced aspect and the way it stacks.
I'm utterly bewildered as to how you can even think for a second that SEPARATE PEOPLE are somehow one single entity when it comes to evaluating some kind of 'justice'.

I'm sorry, I really do not understand how you're all failing to grasp this concept.
I'm beginning to think you're just being biased or experiencing cognitive dissonance because you've called vengeance on people yourself.

A problem I see with it is the defend issue. There are ways to bypass it and make it so you can kill people without getting any sort of suspect for.

Hell the other day I was attacked, and I tried to fight back. It said I had to declare the person before attacking him, well I wasnt declaring when he had me close to dead already. Illusions are one thing, but having to declare somebody while they are attacking you is a load of crap. (And no it wasn't illusions, they can't cast them, and illusions don't kill)

Now, that sounds to me like an actual viable complaint. You shouldn't have to declare on someone to fight back if they attack you first. That's just silly!

Indeed. It has something to do with circumenting avenger by the use of defend "person" from what I could tell. But even if they were circumventing it, I should have still been able to fight back without declaring. I use that technique to test for illusions sometimes. So at first I thought it was an illusion, but well my mana was steadily going down and it wanted me to declare... hmpph on that

@Nezha - On the subject of you getting Avengered by a champion. It's not for the fact that I couldn't just as easy go jump you and kill you and be done with it. It was more the fact that someone who constantly being an annoyance, Munsia, thought it would make her lol to Avenger one of our people so in turn you got avengered too.

I actually agree with the things I bolded. I know the Avenger system is to prevent people from just killing everyone willy nilly,
but it's sort of lame when you think about the fact that experienced fighters who have been jumping others the same way as they've been jumped over the past few days are actually calling Avenger.

I also think defend is a little wonky. So I declare Munsia and break one of her rooms, and now I am open to being ganked by 10 Celestians? I mean, the fact that last night I was killed by Munsia after she was breaking -my- demesne but she didn't get status? I think declare lasts too long because I hadn't attacked her in a while and I -thought- I had been defending, otherwise I wouldn't have attacked her to begin with.

See, this is the crap I'm talking about.
Avenger doesn't prevent griefing, it just stomps conflict into the ground, opens up opportunities for abuse and causes people to spitefully call vengeance with the intent of ruining gameplay.
The message it sends is that if you kill someone repeatedly on Prime (or more than one person, in fact, which makes no sense at all and is just idiotic), you won't be punished... you will be griefed in return.

To be fair, being punished might seem like being griefed to the person who's recieving the punishment.

But the problems with defend really should be worked out.

I was talking with Nezha and I explicitly said that I had 15 hours of peace already, and lost a load of experience.
He admitted that it was pretty damn harsh.
...
Then called avenger on me anyway.
Seriously, ANYONE who'd actually call avenger knowing that the person they're doing it to is going to be peaced for 15 hours and lose a level... is indescribably malicious.

Thats not a problem with defend.

The only way you can defend somebody is if the attacker declares first.

So, A attacks B.
C defends A.
B can only attack C by declaring.

Its not an abuse of Avenger.




ANYONE who is in a position where they have that many suspects that they can be peaced for 15 hours and lose a level .... is indescribably malicious.

The fact that I'd rather be the person who got killed and called vengeance rather than the person whom vengeance was called upon speaks volumes about the 'punishment'.
Going for 'Vengeance' rather than 'Justice' is a negative influence to the entire player population.
Even in real life examples, we can see that punishing people more harshly than their original crime leads to bad things (see how the crime rate is lowest where they have no death sentences).
You can see now, how people are calling vengeance out of spite, rather than out of need (to stop someone genuinely harrassing them). This mentality is not a good sign, and I hope Estarra or someone will see that, rather than brush it off as a 'necessary evil'.
There are no necessary evils.

Assisting in the death of 10 people while you're in a group fighting another group... isn't all that hard.

Again, you're lumping the 10 people together as one. This is nonsensical.
The inconvenience suffered does not, and should not 'stack up'.

Justice is what should be aimed for, not spiteful retribution.

What have you learned?

Don't fight groups on Prime, when you have lich and they don't.

30 hours of peace and 2 praying deaths have pretty well hammered that lesson in, I think.

I didn't have lich, and I don't see what that has to do with it.

I fail to understand as to how you can think 30 hours of peace is EVER justified, no matter how many people I kill.