If the envoys had say over these things, we would have by now. I get the impression that Avenger is ridiculously convoluted code and the less it's poked, the better off everyone is. I'm sure they're aware of the problem. It's not like it hasn't been freely discussed for over two years now.

Gah. There's got to be SOME way to get all this rubbish fixed.

If someone's an enemy, there should be no auto-declare on your part that then allows the defend loophole. They're an enemy, you attack them, and it should be as though THEY declared you first, simply because of their enemy status. No?

EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood that. That looks roughly like it should be the case, but it isn't the case, because being in enemy territory does not involve declaring. Even attacking mobs only loosely seems to, judging by my suspect on Livictus there.

Of course. I'm just saying that this one small change seems simple and straightforward enough, and I'm asking if I've understood the problem correctly such that this change would fix the problem.

I don't like that much just because it'd turn self-defense into something that'll get you above ten suspects in a hurry.

It seems like making new PK commands not override old ones would help (defend is automatic when a raider kills something, declare is automatic when you start a fight in enemy territory, end result is declare taking precedent), or just plain making auto-declare never end with suspect status.

If you include the part where bashing areas don't enemy you unless you kill quest mobs, though (which you need to stop people just ignoring the system and only ganking when people bash, which is a good proportion of what currently happens), there shouldn't be any circumstance where you're doing "self-defence" in enemy territory. If you accidentally walk into Celest and get accosted by a Celestian before you can get out again, well, tough.

Right. I had forgotten about the NPC areas that declare you an enemy for killing things there. That may or may not be a problem, but I can certainly understand how it's considered a cheap tactic to jump people who hunt in such areas. If all of these areas were off-Prime, it wouldn't really be an issue (except for increased experience loss for being in enemy territory). It's somewhat interesting (refreshing, almost) that there can be penalties for hunting in certain places...

I guess it's a bug (the whole loyal territory problem) since the other thread was closed. I'll be issuing anyone caught abusing said bug (since it's a clear abuse.. no different than me "abusing" grace). Enjoy.

I'd like to suggest that the DEFEND command be temporarily removed until this has been remedied.

English must not be your native language.

It is -totally- not "interesting." You already have penalties for hunting in a huge amount of places because offplane makes you vulnerable to PK sans protection. And there are a LOT of offplane hunting areas, most of them the only high-level ones (Muud, Astral, Xion, Catacombs...) The problem is that large swathes of Prime make you vulnerable too. When Arthar'rt, Duum, Shallamurine, Shallach, Presidio, Illithoids, Kephera and so on all enemy you it gets really messy. Essentially your only hunting option is like...gorgogs. And everyone knows how empty they are.

...Wha?

I'm under the impression that this is what triggered the whole issue. How else could it be explained that several people were removed from a suspect list while they were raiding a territory they're enemied to? It didn't start happening until after I attacked and was slain twice through vitae while in that territory. Congluted and found out my suspect list had been miraculously cleared out when I should have had vengeance on several of them (three on a certain someone). PK CAREFUL was ON the entire time. Congluted again, checked the suspect list- only one person remained from the raid. Went back in while graced, got attacked by the last suspect again, checked PK STATUS, and that person (the same person left on the list and should've been vengeanced 2-3 times) miraculously disappeared from the list too. That in itself was a bit fishy.. Slew me twice, suspect list was cleared, went back in, same person attacks again and was removed from suspect list entirely. Either there's an issue with DEFEND or hostile actions are removing people from suspect lists even though they're attacking in enemy territory. It makes no sense at all why this happened.

That's an insult.

To non-natives, I mean.

Attacking through DEFEND does negate status. That part, at least, is working as intended.

I'm confused. Do you mean a raider, who is DEFENDing the entire raiding party, can slay anyone who attacks a fellow raider (in enemy territory) and be removed from that defender's suspect list for simply attacking the defender in response? That has great potential to be abused, if so.

So if 10 raiders all defended each other, it is possible for them to raid and not have to worry about being placed on suspect lists as long as they're attacked by defenders of that territory. That's an incredible design flaw. I guess it's time for me to do a CWHO = defend every single citizen alias, and then have it triggered to redefend.

So, several people can get suspect on me, I go raid their village, and then not have to worry about the people that have suspect on me fighting back because they'll lose that suspect if they did. Sounds like a good away to avoid the system and have yourself removed from PK lists. That's just... stupid. It protects the raiders. Being in enemy territory should negate all Avenger protection and leave you open game to those the territory is loyal to. DEFEND should not work for raiders. DECLARE should not be needed to attack raiders. By entering an enemy territory, the raider gives up all protection from PK, which includes being removed from suspect/vengeance lists if the defender attacks. At least that's how it should be.

Raiders should have no protection by Avenger when in enemy territory. This includes any suspect bs that happens when a defender attacks them. This also includes the DEFEND command.

1. Defenders of a territory should be protected when their territory is raided.
2. Defenders should be able to attack raiders (people enemied to that territory) freely without falling under the Avenger's eye, since they clearly do not have to DECLARE those raiders to the Avenger in order to attack- it's understood. This means suspects should not be removed from a defender's list if the defender fights back in their own territory against that raider.
3. Raiders should not be able to use the DEFEND command while in enemy territory.
4. Raiders should be completely unprotected by Avenger while in enemy territory. Defenders should be able to attack and not lose suspect on the enemy attacked.

Go take a long, hard look at your enemy statuses and make sure you honestly mean you never want to bash anything except krokani and gorgogs for the rest of your time in Lusty.

FYI, the admin and envoys are going to meet to discuss any issues with Avenger, so make sure your envoys know if there's anything specific you want addressed.

Ooh, will do. Myndaen, get to work memorising this thread. *whipcrack*

I don't plan to attend this meeting, so... Better get Charune to respond to the message I sent to him days ago already, I guess? Or maybe they'll let you go in my place? Donno, but either way, I have prior engagements and I don't care enough about the subject to attend, esp. with the fact that I'm still waiting for Charune to get back to me.