Damnit...we'll see then. What's the date/time?

So, I attacked Lanfayr, and Telrath defended. After killing Lanfayr I declared Telrath and killed him too. I didn't get suspect on either at this point, as both liched. Both came to attack me at some point, so I killed both of them again (Vashner had joined and was lichkilled by me once by this point). I got suspect on them after killing them the second time. Both Lanfayr and Telrath came to attack me again, but I didn't lose suspect on either of them. I thought it was very clear in HELP AVENGER that if the victims attacked the bullies at all, the suspect would be dropped?

Is it supposed to be as I interpretted it to be, or is HELP AVENGER just not very clear on the rules?

Also, we're missing a change that makes it so people can't avoid Avechna by hitting you in bashing areas. Most of these issues got solved though, yay.

EDIT: Updated first post.

Hmm...I thought it was supposed to work like you mentioned where if person B has suspect on person A and person B attacked person A, person B's suspect gets dropped. I mean, I had suspect on Thoros once and my passive song effects triggered and counted as an attack so I lost suspect on him then, but I don't know what happened to you there. :/

Note that this all took place during a very, very short span of time. After me dying the second time and coming back from vitae, you earned suspect (always drink your vitae on Prime, kids). However, I was still defending Lanfayr, and you still had me declared, so I believe the additional attacks from me were not yet 'hostile actions' as mentioned in HELP AVENGER, but probably would have been once the declarations/defending had worn off. This is why Kaervas was also able to defend safely and your death didn't remove any suspect status (know the risks before declaring in neutral territory). From what I understand, even after the declaration/defense has worn off at Spectre Isle, if you were to declare me again in neutral territory (or if I defended someone who you had declared there) or attacked me in a territory you were enemied to, any attacks by me would still not be considered 'hostile' because you were the aggressor. Therefore, in order for me to commit a hostile action against you that would strip suspect, I would have to hit first at you or someone else in a neutral area (or an area that I'm enemied to), then hit you when I defend.

That said, I totally agree with you that HELP AVENGER doesn't address everything and can be very confusing.

Let us know where it's confusing/needs more exposition and we'll see what we can do about making it clearer.

This was intentionally left "as-is," because some wanted to be able to defend Big Game (illithoids, kepherans). It was discussed as a possibility, though, prior to being rejected-- enemy status would just make them "not like you" when greeted and the like, but wouldn't affect the area.

Can there not at least be some half-way thing, though? Defending kephera and illithoid is occasionally relevant and defending them justified because of quests, but right now we have this half-arsed setup where some areas you can get jumped just for bashing with no Avechna (arthar'rt), and others where you can't be hit even if you're killing mobs and doing quests that attack people (hifarae.) It should at least be consistent, so you can expect either to be able to jump people doing quests that matter (i.e not the stewartsville quest) and die to bashing, or so you can expect to be safe doing either.

An alternative would be to make all areas do what you described in your post UNLESS you killed quest mobs there, and EXCEPT illithoid and kephera.

This would require an additional flag-- one for "normalEnemy" in which they react to you as an enemy and one for TrueEnemy in which you're actually enemied to the area. I think multiple flags is something they want to avoid, as well as being more confusing than the binary, "If you're enemied to an area you're not safe" or "You're always safe in these bashing areas." I do agree with this, though-- it should be the same for all of them, either way.

Thanks, I'll try sending in an IDEA for an update. I just reread HELP AVENGER closely and did notice that it mentioned having the victim fight back in self-defense as a way to lose suspect (though it does earn you vengeance), but I suppose it's implied that this is a later attack by Galt, after the initial declaration that earned him suspect on Chade's list had worn off?

Ok. If they don't want multiple flags, then the benefit gained from being able to disrupt people killing illithoids and kephera for the couple of quests that need them, which no one ever does, is insignificant compared to the drawback of having the Avenger not apply if you want to kill someone because you can jump them while hunting.

With that as certain as anything subjective is in Lusternia, it becomes a tradeoff between being able to disrupt quests used to harm you (gorgogs, spawns of the horde, muud) and being able to bash areas without getting jumped without Avechna protection.

There's much more room for dispute on that one, but I would still lean towards the latter simply because it comes up much much more.