I would have said it sooner, but I worked all day

Hey, I thought giving you guardian-level damage was a fine idea, but if the bard envoys decide they'd rather give up afflictions and become a damage class, that's cool too.

That was actually a really stupid idea, and shows that you know very little about fighting as a bard.

Nihilists don't need any 'fixer uppers' as far as I'm concerned. They are set and nice and solid. Not the coders fault that no Nihilist characters care to actually try and use skills past crucify and shackles to stick anything.

Maybe no changes combat wise, but we could do with a few RP abilities.

So true

Wouldnt mind a few rp abilities though for the most part raisedead is rp

Right. Apparently you don't pay attention. Stick shackles? What are you talking about? Nihilism is all about aeon..which kinda sorta...sucks.

I dont think she mentioned sticking shackles. Nihilists definitely don't need buffs.

Okay let's look at it the arguements

The anti buffing nihilist group: Nihilists are a great class, one of the best in the game. Look at Thoros. He raped everyone.

Thoros: If you can't beat a Nihilist, your system sucks.

The pro buffing nihilist group: Give them something more reliable than sticking aeon.


I don't see the problem.

You wouldn't

I am not 100% clear on what you think the arguments you gave have to do with the solution. Are bards ok if Acrune or Narsrim tell you you suck unless you can beat one? Are Nihilists any weaker because Thoros (who managed to obliterate most people as one) says they are? Are there other classes who have to stick aeon to win that you don't think are weak?

Stop splitting hairs. You got the point. When I've asked anyone why Nihilists don't need buffs, 9 times out of 10 their arguement is Thoros. Anyone who understands how Nihilists and aeon lock work, and have the demon attack messages can easily avoid aeon sticking for more than a second or two. Lyco, Geb, Thoros, Forren, Veonira, Myndaen. These people have systems that laugh in the face of a Nihilist. What other class requires aeon to stick? None. Unless there is an argument people aren't saying...Nihilists need something other than Aeon lock...and writhe stacking doesn't count because now they have to compete with contort. It's not about skill. It's not about telling people they suck...it's about the mechanics of the game. Systems are improving...other classes have ways to cope. Nihilists are stagnant.

And please, if you DO have an arguement other than "Thoros"...explain it...because I could just be totally missing something

Ok!

Three levels of entanglement and enough off-balance skills to keep tipheret from working with aeon. Don't tell me the strategy doesn't work or you're arguing for dreamweaver or druid upgrades at the same time.

Decent (not great) damage output, including bleeding in aeon. Don't tell me that doesn't work or we're going to have to buff druids twice.

A domination skill that has not been used effectively since Thoros left the guild. (ZOMG I SED THOROS I LOOZ) Don't tell me those aren't huge or we're going to have to buff wiccans, and I'm going to have to make your life hell if you're the justification used to buff wiccans.

Programmable passive offense. Not even the dreaded Blacktalon demesne has that.

Cheaper instakills, allowing Nihilists to fight at closer to full power all the way to the end. Celestines and wiccans would love to have that.

-----

Now, Nihilists aren't the game's most powerful class, but if you could hear Malarious "But they can cure that!" y'Kada on the envoy channel, you'd probably have a better idea of why Nihilism upgrades are so poorly received.

And many great utility skills.

Still, it doesn't mean all those things work together well enough.

Here's another argument besides 'Thoros'. It's called 'Torak'. He was a better and smarter Nihilist with far less skills. And he did it with style too.

And, if Nihilists are stagnant, what about Celestines? Nihilists have gotten tons of buffs already thanks to Malarious hard envoy work, and Celestines have recieved a fire damage boost.

If you get all 3 levels then your slow.. at best we would need web and hangedman when demon does shackles.. you could tipheret out and we would have wasted a bunch of time in there

IF you arent already able to writhe out fast naturally.

As for Talkan: Torak was also in days when it could be a bit easier, curing was worse, ecto was free, hexes could work, asthma was a softlock, etc.

Notice Torak stopped coming about and stopped fighting even before that. Slaying wasnt as easy, nowadays if you got hit with gorgulu attack you know its anorexia. If you cant cure aeon anor stup before he got bal from flinging I would imagine stupidity tic'd

EDIT: And Thanks bout my envoy work Bianca theres a reason -6- guilds have asked me to change classes just so I could envoy. Including credit bribes (which I obviously have turned down).

Inquisition. Inquisition. Inquisition. Inquisition? Inquisition.

Torak was an accomplished fighter, and is not valid as an example now.

That said, Guardians don't need any major upgrades (certainly not most of the ones stated in this thread so far). Most classes at the moment are balanced enough (monks will be after yesterday's summit, hopefully; Glamours will be closer to balance after this next round of envoys.)

EDIT: All imho, of course. And run from Infidel.

EDIT 2: Hmm, regarding the original post: I agree with the Carrion, Bumblebee/Spider, and BurningSun changes. Nihilists really don't need a Succumb-esque ability, don't know enough about Spawn to comment on that (though the proposed change seems ok), and BirthRite is not needed at all (and would be way OP). I like the Mastery idea, but you're more likely to get that as an artifact. Oh, and remove powerdrain/hunger, kthx.

i dont understand whats so unbalanced about glamours its never won me a fight..