Not a liar. Just incompetent.

Okay. Then a druid in a demesne can survive inquisition. Woo. Love potion.

Really 12 seconds? Hmm maybe the inquisition eq recovery is just really long.

It's random 8-12 seconds. He got a couple lucky breaks that fight. But yeah. Soulless? Treebane. Amissio? Treebane. Cosmicfire? Treebane. After that he ran to the other side of the arena and taunted me for a good twenty minutes.

Well, to be fair, a Celestine pretty much cannot kill a competent druid. Celestines depend greatly on timing and the druid demesne seems to exist specifically to screw up timing.

So Amaru is a noob, and you're the expert on fighting as a Celestine?

If you are so scared of being Inquisitioned, then run after being branded a Heretic. If you are a bit more accomplished in your healing and skills, run after being branded an Infidel. Truthfully, in a 1 on 1 fight, a Celestine could not inquisition me unless I stayed around and allowed it. The only passive skill they have to keep you in the room is Carcer. Oh, and I've fault the best Celestines that have been in the game, and in all cases running worked when it came to avoiding the Inquisition.

Also considering how much power it costs to actually Inquisition a person, running after they branded me an Infidel meant that they would lose 6 power each time in the endeavor. Besides, you of all people should have had an easy time avoiding an Inquisition in the classes you played. The only reasons why I can think you feel it is so hard to avoid is because you listen to others instead of actually finding out for yourself. Or, it could be that are not as adept at figuring out how to deal with attacks as some others are.

Nihilists are even more dependant on timing, speed and efficient, prolonged affliction streaming. It's a difficult class to master. Celestines have it a bit easier, Inquisition is a powerful tool.

Become a Celestine and show how powerful it actually is. Then once you see people with necromancy ghost at critical moments, others run at critical moments, you will see just how powerful Inquisition is 1 on 1. Really, a Celestine has to get the rubs and go for the Inquisition which costs 12 power to complete. If the person does not stick around to allow for the last expenditure of 6 power, the Celestine will not be able to Inquisition the person. So how can a Celestine keep a person in place long enough for that to happen? We are talking about prudent people who know when to get the heck out of dodge, forcing the Celestine to start all over again; not people who stand there clueless allowing the whole process to complete.

Oh, and for Krin: Heretic does not hold anyone in place. The actual Inquisition is what holds a person in place, and the whole process of that requires a certain amount of time to complete. You can't even team it to an insta-kill like Trample+Crucify+Sacrifice, because the glow required to brand the person as an Infidel and then Inquisition the person has a set amount of time between each stage. Therefore, people have to actually hinder you for a good while before you can actually be Inquisitioned, even in a ganking situation.

In my personal opinion, the only reason why some people fear it so much is because it can strip them of their protection from an experience loss death. So it seems to get vilified more than what is actually warranted in my opinion, because it is actually a pretty easy process to avoid.

This is because you are the only person in all of IRE games who thinks that you are a combatant, when you aren't.



How long does treebane last nowaday? It seems really short to me, but I don't have a timer. My guess right now is about 30 seconds.

This was on the old 20 second timer. Infidel? Treebane. There's no lust tarot or love potion going to save you from that one.

@ geb

Even if it's just up to Infidel, it's quite painful and forces the enemy to back off. Celestine has to start over, but so does the enemy (unless it's a warrior who managed to deal lots of wounds - it can't be cured that quickly, and that kind of prolonged damage is something that guardians cannot do - unless you count Inquisition). Lichdom stripping would also be a scaring factor for necromancers (though some probably don't care much anyway), and that's value. It's not bad I'd say - I've been on the receiving end of it and it was being used - it wouldn't if it was crap.

Also, please note another thing, I'm not talking about top tier combat which is the indicator for balancing classes. I'm talking about difficulty of learning to fight as a member of a specific guild. I believe Nihilists are harder to master than Celestines. For example, Sting is a decent part of Nihilist combat but it deals random afflictions that a Nihilist also doesn't know. Inquisition on the other hand is a rather simple tool (I know that it can be prevented by a capable oponent, but still).

And I don't have to be on the other side to appreciate ghost, it saved my ass several times in difficult situations. But in a fight, ghost is an escaping tool, you don't win a fight with it. Also, only two guilds have it.

I've never felt infidel was painful at all. I've experienced it at all levels, and Infidel+Heretic were nothing but annoyances at most, with the True fear being placed on Inquisition which could lead to a Soulless kill (Inquisition in the hands of a Paladin is laughable, and plenty of times I will not even seek to avoid it in a 1 on 1 fight). Also, it does not take a top tier person to avoid the Inquisition process. All it takes is a person who is semi-competent to know when to move away. Highlight the messages for each stage, and move the heck away when you see the message that you have been branded.

You believe that Celestine skills are easier to master than Nihilist’s? Well I use to believe that before Nihilists received some of the upgrades they have been given. The class has received a few gems that when used effectively, can mess over most of the population. So right now, I would rate them at nearly the same level. Blackout may bother some people, but there are others who are able to deal with blackout with relative ease, so the only worry when seeing that is the person may fling Soulless. If you keep a count of how many times you are rubbed and pay attention to the actions of the Celestine when blackout hits, you can get a pretty good idea when it is a good time to leave the room.

Last, if you can escape your opponent's killing combos, then you can also return and seek to defeat said opponent. You don't win a fight by dying.

I admit that I'm quite behind on updates, so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Do you think though that guardians in general are on par with other archetypes when it comes to their offensive power's dependancy on curing systems' efficiency?
In particular, when they're put against a well done curing system, are they more powerless than other classes?

Guardians are weak against very good systems in the hands of people who understand them. People, who do not understand the system they possess, can still be defeated no matter how great the system is. The reason for this is because a system is never perfect. No matter what one says about his/her system or what people on these boards state about systems they have been up against, no system is perfect at curing. Systems can and do fail, leaving those who do not understand the system to be dependent on the creator of the system for correcting the problem.

As for your question, yes guardians and moondancers are a bit more hindered by good aeon curing systems than others. Warriors are a bit more hindered by systems that know how to parry, stance, and track wounds well. Mages are hindered by systems that know how to control sip levels, keep the love potion up, and heal afflictions. All of the classes have some weaknesses that can be exploited. Those same classes in the right hands can overcome those weaknesses, if the person behind the class is a bit creative.

Lets see cant remember everything said so I will comment on what I recall..

-Carcer stops leaving, not heretic or infidel.
-Yes abolsve 8 with no cost on fail, wrack 5 with cost on fail. However I do agree these would seem more like upgrades to both of them.
-All aeon reliant classes can be thwarted by curing, and in some cases near perfect curing can generally mean you lose
-Guardians and WIccans would need lose aeon to work as well as other classes without aeon
-Nihilists have gotten upgrades to help cope, they still tend to rely on aeon, but they arent as bad as they used to be
-Ghost >>> inquisition

All I remember for now :/

EDIT: Oh and againts good systems you have to rely 100% upon stupidity screwing them over most of the time since aeon is curable before you get bal otherwise

Not all the time. A nihilist can be as creative as they want, but they simply do not have the afflicting power to out pace good curing. Okay, look at this way. A demi warrior using hi precision rapiers can stack wounds faster than curing than is possible. Without hindering or running away, the warriors will outpace even perfect curing...and seeing as how alot of warriors are using weapons that tendon or pinleg on the first or second hit...running and hindering can be extremely difficult. This is against someone with robes...not another warrior. So if all else fails, all your creative tactics go wonky, you can still out pace their curing as a simple matter of mathematics. Bards can do the same with damage. So on and so forth. Now look at the Nihilist class, perfect curing will always beat a Nihilist because a Nihilist simply can't out pace curing speeds. They just don't have the ability to do so. If aeon and all the little tricks fail..a Nihilist has nothing. The class needs SOMETHING more than aeon sticking and poking and prodding people's systems until they find a bug...especially since they are a power heavy class so at the some point they are going to run out of power before they find a glitch in the system.

Now say that perfect curing does exist (or something very close). Said warrior can still win because he out paces curing. The Nihilist can not. That's a problem.

Not saying Guardians need some uber buffs, because they don't..they just aren't as balanced as they used to be because systems are improving.

No one has an offense that can be sustained that outpaces curing. That's not how things work.

Or, to turn your example around, no warrior can beat someone with perfect parrying and stancing.

That is how things work, actually. Some classes CAN outpace healing/curing while others can't. If you don't agree, then you've been out of the combat loop for a bit too long.

As for parrying/stancing, yes...yes they can. Xavius..meet lunge. Lunge...meet Xavius. You can't stance/parry your entire body so it's conceivable that a warrior will never hit parry or stance. *trigger line* *cure* is different than predicting what body part someone will hit you next.

I don't think you read what he said. Try again. Look for the word "sustained." Lunge is definitely not something that can be done repeatedly-- that's the entire reason power was implemented.

I read what he said, it still stands. Lunge bypasses parry and stance, so it makes sense where I put it.

Okay, let me rephrase it.

"No one has an offense that can be sustained that outpaces curing. That's not how things work."

Put a Nihilist with perfect curing against a warrior with perfect curing. Nihilist gets a whole minute to whack the snot out of warrior. HE WILL GET NO WHERE. Now Warrior gets a go. With high precision scimitars, a warrior(we'll say demigod) will outpace your healing. It's a fact. There is no debating this. The wounds that stack will outpace your applying...this isn't even including stupidity, stuns, and pinlegs. This is imbalanced.

Perfect curing should either save you no matter what class you are against OR everyone should have access to skills that outpace curing.

Now throw in monks. Monks outpace curing after their third combination. Look for the log of Geb vs Thoros. There is your proof.

That is how combat in Lusternia works.