Unknown2008-01-07 03:15:54
Actually, I'd argue that BCs could do more damage in Choke than PBs. But neither really have reason to be Choking.
I still say AL with Choke would own hard, but I'm not quite as good as Sintor.
I still say AL with Choke would own hard, but I'm not quite as good as Sintor.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:20:21
i am an sd hexist, and using metawake, kafe, insomnia, pretty much stops sleep locks, if you are walking into choke prepared and KNOW what you are doing sleep hexes wont be doing much...im not going to explain everything ill leave you to work it out..
oh, bm and bc can be amazing in choke if the user can cure and knows what hes doing..id direct you to thoros on this one..
edit: just to make it clear im not saying metawake kafe and insomnia negate sleeplock overall im saying they negate it if your walking into the choke
oh, bm and bc can be amazing in choke if the user can cure and knows what hes doing..id direct you to thoros on this one..
edit: just to make it clear im not saying metawake kafe and insomnia negate sleeplock overall im saying they negate it if your walking into the choke
Xavius2008-01-07 03:22:37
QUOTE(silimaur @ Jan 6 2008, 09:20 PM) 473898
i am an sd hexist, and using metawake, kafe, insomnia, pretty much stops sleep locks, if you are walking into choke prepared and KNOW what you are doing sleep hexes wont be doing much...im not going to explain everything ill leave you to work it out..
oh, bm and bc can be amazing in choke if the user can cure and knows what hes doing..id direct you to thoros on this one..
oh, bm and bc can be amazing in choke if the user can cure and knows what hes doing..id direct you to thoros on this one..
Sili dear, I really think I'm going to have to direct you back to your skills "to work it out."
Hyrtakos2008-01-07 03:23:31
I like fighting inside it as a warrior. I'll stay and fight against Shadowdancers and have even occasionally used choke against Moondancers in duels and stuff (Aesyra comes to mind) so where it being overpowered comes from I don't know.
Why is it overpowered? Because most people are too lazy to learn how to cure inside of it and rely on their systems too much. You complain about hexes? How long should a hex take you to cure even inside choke? Do the math... if that hex is distributed to six different people you have eaten away all of their hexes and you should -all- be perfectly fine within a couple seconds.
I look at these arguments from people and can't help but laugh. What's next? Nerfing scissorflip, agoraphobia hexes, treelife and other things that can mess groups up? Or oh wait... it needs to affect the caster as well to be overpowered in groups? How you can possibly see this as even being on the level with currents/phantomwalls is beyond me.
Why is it overpowered? Because most people are too lazy to learn how to cure inside of it and rely on their systems too much. You complain about hexes? How long should a hex take you to cure even inside choke? Do the math... if that hex is distributed to six different people you have eaten away all of their hexes and you should -all- be perfectly fine within a couple seconds.
I look at these arguments from people and can't help but laugh. What's next? Nerfing scissorflip, agoraphobia hexes, treelife and other things that can mess groups up? Or oh wait... it needs to affect the caster as well to be overpowered in groups? How you can possibly see this as even being on the level with currents/phantomwalls is beyond me.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:25:37
xavius dear ill have to get you to look at your curing, and your tactics in choke, if sds are getting a sleeplock on someone thats walking into there choke supposedly prepared then they are either not prepared like they seem to think or dont know how to deal with shadowdancers...
Shamarah2008-01-07 03:28:23
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jan 6 2008, 09:47 PM) 473876
You two must deal with the kind of hexists who don't know what sleep hexes are for.
You must forget to turn metawake on against Shadowdancers.
Pre-choking will kill newbs and midbies and some highbies but to get the top-tiers it's generally not going to cut it.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:30:12
exactly the point i was trying to make in my sleep deprived state (sleep hexes my way anyone?)..prechoking only works if the victim lets it work..this means they dont know how to handle it..
Xavius2008-01-07 03:37:51
I'm sorry, I missed the announce post where pooka only worked for Moondancers and whammies don't actually mask hexes.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:41:37
i think i missed the point where someone who knows what there doing cant deal with that for the few seconds it takes to tumble..considering after your first command goes through 1 second after you enter (meaning just before theres as you can send it with your entrycommand) you have however much time left in choke just metawaking/insomnia/kafe/cure or whatever while they burn power..
Verithrax2008-01-07 03:41:56
QUOTE(Xavius @ Jan 7 2008, 12:11 AM) 473892
Situational for axelords and pureblades, useless for bonecrushers and blademasters.
My point exactly. Choke is bad because of the room it leaves to abuse, not because the effect itself is overpowered. Hence why giving it to a class that excels at passive effects was a mistake.
Xavius2008-01-07 03:43:41
QUOTE(silimaur @ Jan 6 2008, 09:41 PM) 473905
i think i missed the point where someone who knows what there doing cant deal with that for the few seconds it takes to tumble..considering after your first command goes through 1 second after you enter (meaning just before theres as you can send it with your entrycommand) you have however much time left in choke just metawaking/insomnia/kafe/cure or whatever while they burn power..
Oh, ok. My mistake. Clearly tumble is the grand nerf to all choke tactics and affects everyone without sleep skills more than it does you.
You two sound an awful lot like Krin tonight.
Hyrtakos2008-01-07 03:50:40
@Verithrax Can you name a class that doesn't have passive effects or a way of turning the fae against the caster?
@Everybody Can you name another skill that isn't balanced around top-tier combat, but instead lowbie zerg rushes?
@Xavius Can you name a skill that tumble isn't the ultimate nerf to in most situations?
@Everybody Can you name another skill that isn't balanced around top-tier combat, but instead lowbie zerg rushes?
@Xavius Can you name a skill that tumble isn't the ultimate nerf to in most situations?
Xavius2008-01-07 03:51:37
QUOTE(hyrtakos @ Jan 6 2008, 09:50 PM) 473912
@Xavius Can you name a skill that tumble isn't the ultimate nerf to in most situations?
Yes. Sleep.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:52:18
xavius, you tumble out of choke sd has wasted pooka for 12 seconds IF it had got its connection in the few seconds before you tumble, the sd has wasted upto 4 hexes which as soon as your out you have repared in miliseconds thats cost him 4 power and 4 seconds of preparing to replace the hexes you walk back in repeat is most likely hes now wasted another 4 power if hes still using it for sleep or whatever else, your out cured near instantaneously and you walk back in they now have hardly any power maybe have scratched a few hexes together but nothing at all lethal suddenly there whole tactic has not only collapsed but also theyve burnt power mana and time trying to do it while youve done absolutely nothing and used basicaly nothing and thats a very simple version..obviously putting it into practice theres alot more to consider but it really isnt hard in my opinion..
edit: against a prepared victim tumble is a complete nerf to any sleep tactic..
edit: against a prepared victim tumble is a complete nerf to any sleep tactic..
Xavius2008-01-07 03:53:20
QUOTE(silimaur @ Jan 6 2008, 09:52 PM) 473915
xavius, you tumble out of choke sd has wasted pooka for 12 seconds IF it had got its connection in the few seconds before you tumble, the sd has wasted upto 4 hexes which as soon as your out you have repared in miliseconds thats cost him 4 power and 4 seconds of preparing to replace the hexes you walk back in repeat is most likely hes now wasted another 4 power if hes still using it for sleep or whatever else, your out cured near instantaneously and you walk back in they now have hardly any power maybe have scratched a few hexes together but nothing at all lethal suddenly there whole tactic has not only collapsed but also theyve burnt power mana and time trying to do it while youve done absolutely nothing and used basicaly nothing and thats a very simple version..obviously putting it into practice theres alot more to consider but it really isnt hard in my opinion..
Silimaur, if you burn four hexes, ain't nobody tumbling.
Hyrtakos2008-01-07 03:56:28
With metawake up, chances are astronomical that you'll be able to tumble in that time.
silimaur2008-01-07 03:57:10
if you burn four hexes they can easily cure and leave...your still not considering metawake..my tumble goes through as i enter the room (using it in conjuction with moving in) the only way to stop me is to remove my metawake before tumble is complete and once a room is choked, a pooka cannot strip metawake on someone who knows what they are doing. When the pooka message occurs, all you have to do is "glance" or "look" to override the command to remove metawake during the choke delay (people with "choke systems" trigger this). This requires a Shadowdancer to strip metawake -before- choking. However given the equilibrium cost of choke, a lot of people will highlight that their metawake has dropped and instantly put it back up. Even if you do get someone asleep without kafe in choke and no metawake, all they have to do is wake up a single time, put up metawake, and tumble out.
There are people who do very well in choke and there are people who do not. This is usually reflected by how well they control metawake.
There are people who do very well in choke and there are people who do not. This is usually reflected by how well they control metawake.
Xavius2008-01-07 04:01:08
Dear gods, people.
Draw hexes. Choke. Aggro fae. Shield. Wait.
Person comes in. Don't be a noob. Stand still. If tumbling starts one second after, plaugh @target. It won't drop your shield. If tumbling doesn't start, your shield gets broken, and your fae attack, doublewhammy stupidity sleep, pooka off metawake, doublewhammy sleep sleep. Bye bye kafe. Bye bye delayed tumble. Nature faeriefire @target. Track curing. Don't be a noob--druids can win fights like this with runes and nerfed aeon at this stage. You have aeon, sleep, and hexes. Profit!
Draw hexes. Choke. Aggro fae. Shield. Wait.
Person comes in. Don't be a noob. Stand still. If tumbling starts one second after, plaugh @target. It won't drop your shield. If tumbling doesn't start, your shield gets broken, and your fae attack, doublewhammy stupidity sleep, pooka off metawake, doublewhammy sleep sleep. Bye bye kafe. Bye bye delayed tumble. Nature faeriefire @target. Track curing. Don't be a noob--druids can win fights like this with runes and nerfed aeon at this stage. You have aeon, sleep, and hexes. Profit!
silimaur2008-01-07 04:05:15
ive already stated that you wont be losing metawake if your prepared..now lets consider your approach assuming your controling your metawake correctly the sleeplock will be ineffective even if it takes you 5-10 seconds your still tumbled out and cured very very quickly with the same outcome, they have wasted there power mana and time redrawing hexes for nothing hence why you might find if you look at any of my logs that i do not go for sleeplock vs any good combatant that has walked into my choke...sleep is an added bonus some of the time but nothing to be relied on
Xavius2008-01-07 04:09:14
QUOTE(silimaur @ Jan 6 2008, 10:05 PM) 473936
ive already stated that you wont be losing metawake if your prepared..
State it as much as you'd like. You haven't, in your glorious wisdom, mentioned how you're going to be breaking a shield, curing fae, launching an offensive, and putting metawake back up in the one second you have to pull it off.
QUOTE
now lets consider your approach assuming your controling your metawake correctly the sleeplock will be ineffective even if it takes you 5-10 seconds your still tumbled out and cured very very quickly with the same outcome, they have wasted there power mana and time redrawing hexes for nothing hence why you might find if you look at any of my logs that i do not go for sleeplock vs any good combatant that has walked into my choke...sleep is an added bonus some of the time but nothing to be relied on
You don't have 5 seconds. Sleep. Stops. Tumble.
Plus, 4p is gone, you're fine, and your opponent just got repelled. Who won that skirmish?
(And, please, grammar.)