I'll try to keep this short and simple. In your responses, please don't try to go into hyper detail, there will obviously be exceptions to the rule, but this is about the design of monks, not individual skills.

Two basic assumptions:
Monk attacks become more damaging as deepwounds increase.
As you take greater damage from a monk, you are able to cure deepwounds less.

With these two rules alone, monks in combat will become exponentially more effective as they progress in deepwound stacking.

The result:
If the monk can wound you faster than you can cure the wounds: You will become further and further behind, because each attack after will be more effective than the last.

If the monk cannot wound you faster than you can cure the wounds: They will never gain enough effectiveness to pass this barrier. Effectively, monks become unable to kill.

Finally,
This is why I think monks are unbalanceable. Either they can't touch you, or they'll destroy you.

A side note on hindering:
If a class can hinder monks to set them back to 0 wounds stacked without disrupting their own offense, effectively the cannot wound fast enough. If not, they are too strong. Either way is imbalanced.

A final note on curing:
This is the real core of the problem, which creates the above problem: Monks meaningful progress is all on the health potion balance, therefore perfect curing doesn't ameliorate the problem of monks stacking wounds. No matter how good your curing is, you're simply making a decision between curing deepwounds and healing . It's built in synergy, rather than strategic.

Please don't nitpick at any one idea! I'm sure there are some inaccuracies in this, but the general thought is what I want people to address. If you disagree, please say why!

Thanks,
Ciaran

Don't warriors go off of the same basic concept, though? More deepwounds = more efficiency. Only we have a higher rate of poisons coming off when the deepwounds are higher.

The key difference is that more deepwounds doesn't equate to more damage, or more wounding. As you gain more deepwounds your attacks are more damaging, but not more damaging to the health or deepwounds, which are on the same balance.

Is this still a problem, knowing that all monks are going to be going to the rupture system?

Not to nitpick, but I don't want you to waste effort campaigning this, which if the above wasn't a factor, I'd agree with, if it's all going to be changed anyway.

I don't have experience with ninjakari and the rupture system firsthand, so I'm not sure if my goal will still be to inflict wounds or whether I'll be able to lock people up enough, so feel free to correct me. I acknowledge that I'm probably wrong.

The rupture system is another matter entirely. Not only do you have the paradox that Ciaran mentions as far as balancing, but now you are going to throw in 100% affliction rates with required ruptures as opposed to a warrior's "chance" at getting an affliction with the right wound state.

Why are you only comparing monks to warriors? Because they do physical damage? Because they use weapons? Can't you just as easily say, "well, it sucks that shadowdancers can have a 100% affliction rate with their fae AND nightkiss?!"

Because the argument is founded upon the basis of damage and deepwounding?

I don't see how the rupture system will solve this problem. Monks will still be a damage kill class will they not?

Well, heck, lemme backpedal a minute.

I concur with you. Give us MUCH stronger attacks (on par with warriors) per hit, and I'm fine with having a percentage chance to afflict.

Edit:


Well, again, I'm really tenuous on how the rupture system will work, but from what I've seen in the Shofangi redux thread in the monk committee, I'd spend more time getting ruptures to lock your healing up, and THEN try to go for a damage kill. But then again, who knows if a lock is even possible, and who knows if I'd even go for it in practice, I'm only talking theory. But, rupture system and it's potential affects aside, I agree completely.

I don't think this addresses the point of my post. (Which is that the design of monks is unbalanceable.)

Edit: But if ruptures are also cured on healing balance, I just don't think it'll be that much of a solution. All monks stacks are on health balance, this needs to change.

Sorry, that was to hyrtakos, not you at all, and was in no way, shape or form intended to be serious.

Check my edit please!

Did you even read what he posted, or did you just jump into "my skills are fine, leave me alone" mode upon clicking into the thread?

The argument is about how each successive hit is exponentially more effective due to damage scaling with deepwounds. Don't rupture attacks cause wounding as well? I don't see how "hey, soon I'll have unstoppable instakills like the Ninjakari so you won't have to worry about this argument" answers anything he asked about.

Actually, it was more like a, "Don't forget about ruptures before you spend all of your effort campaigning to change monks."

I completely agree with him.

You'll notice, if you pay attention, that no changes have been submitted for the Shofangi or Tahtetso skillsets. This is because we know that they're going to be changed significantly. In the event that he may not have thought about the fact that monks as they are right now will not be the same, I had hoped to get him to think about it. You then jumped on the "woe is me as a warrior because I don't have 100% affliction rate" crap, and then I feel the topics diverged.

Edit: My point is that I don't think it's a good idea to potentially waste time arguing for a change for monks without ruptures in mind. The way I see it, which I've said on multiple occasions may well be wrong, is that my combat will be different when I get ruptures. I may not care about the things that he's concerned with.

Edit2: I don't know where you got the "don't nerf my class" mindset from. I think you're just jumping to being defensive. I hope I didn't give that impression. I merely wanted to impress that combat may not be as clear cut as he laid it out, and that he's going to have to go through a lot of effort to get anything changed, and that he should just keep in mind that things will be changing. I apologize for being silly and trying to help.

I have no problems with the way warriors are set up now. I simply offered the parallel that has been balanced and rebalanced many times over now in Lusternia's history. They're both founded upon the same base ideals, deepwounds being unique to Lusternia, and I don't see why they shouldn't at least get stacked up next to one another as a gauge at first glance.

Address this?

So, ignoring the 100% affliction crap, yes, warriors and monks are the same because they both use deepwounds.

So why don't warriors encounter this problem?

Can't you just take your first post and say:

Warrior attacks become more damaging as deepwounds increase.
As you take greater damage from a warrior, you are able to cure deepwounds less.

What'm I missing?

(This is not an attack, this is not defensive, this is an earnest question.)

Technically the argument remains the same with a couple of changes. With ruptures a monk will be able to lessen the chance that they will get into situations where they cannot outpace someone's wound curing and thereby never build up enough to do a damage kill. At the same time they will drastically improve the chances that they will be able to build up wounds against pretty much anybody and get the damage kill.

Ruptures are based on health application so it just compounds the problem rather than changing the basic nature of the problem.

To clarify, this is in reference to how warrior's wounding scale is different.



Exactly what I'm trying to point out.

It would be more accurate to say,

Warrior attacks become have more afflictions as deepwounds increase.
As you take greater damage from a warrior, you are able to cure deepwounds less.

Warriors basically have a triangle. Damage --> Deepwounds --> Afflictions --> chance to kill.

Monks have this set up. Damage --> Deepwounds --> More Damage --> death



edit: How hard would it be to have attacks either do deepwounds or afflictions, but not both? And still not be chance based.

It is a problem. A big one, but a lot of people seem to disagree that monks are unbalanced. Most of them are monks, but still. Wounds, damage, wounds afflictions, and venoms with each attack that get progressively worse...and since the last monk envoy, are now harder to stop and recover quicker. With ruptures for all monks, things become ridiculous. Grapples and passive peace and chaindrag and on and on. Monks just need to be broken down and rebuilt.