Some of these posts are kind of stupid. I didnt read the whole thing. I quoted this one for the above part. Contagion has a power cost but eh not important. Note the +2 int and str are at night. its -1 the other 60% or so of the time. They tend to be at a loss, not a gain.

As for the rest of you lot...

Trueheal requires using no power for offense, or you refresh power to use it. Can you make use of it by not using power on purpose? Easily. Refer to Malicia, Nydekion, Nemerle, Narsrim, and Ilyarin you have all used it when raiding or defending (not being jumped even!).

Lich is put up ahead of time and yes your off eq with no power. In reality you have till the lich gets 10p back to rekill them before they will seed. On top of eye sigils to stop them from leaving.

Both have their own purposes and uses.

Should all Celest get Trueheal? No mainly because of guilds that lose NOTHING or little to nothing by choosing not to. Knights can choose to not ues power attacks and if they arent going for specific wounds they can do fine. But you cant give Tahtetso trueheal. The bastards just wouldnt die.. then again they can also tripleflash from the start!

I forgot the rest of the stuff, its time for me to nap. Just remember in your arguments to think about things from the other sides view. If Magnagora could rampage through celestia and trueheal, which means fully heal and repel attacks a bit. We probably would just because the main target can heal out AND still be target one. Celest had lich they would have more people want to raid. If Celest had more people raid more would conglute/pray especially with eye sigils (even with lich). If Magnagora has trueheal some people would forget about power or go petal to the metal and get themselves killed because why be careful to trueheal when you can just try to kill someone instead.

This debate is soooo old I cant believe any sane person made a topic on it.

Move this topic to idiots please

P.S. The best ability in Sacraments is numen, imo.

I thought this would have been one of the first they closed since threads like this pop up all the time.

I've yet to see anyone, Celestian or not, who thinks that TH means rarely losing XP. No Th will save your exp when you get dragged in a room with ton of people who are blocking and doing everything else possible to keep you in there and hurt you bad. You'll be pretty lucky if you'll manage to TH fast enough, but even then, it's all over after those seven seconds.

Can you not see the difference between fighting to the death and trying to get away as a soul as opposed to holding on to 10p and hope you can still get away? I'm sure many sacrament users could tell you that trueheal alone won't save them, without a backup plan. I die a lot while raiding.

I would just like to point out, malice-free, that Vathael's general post is correct. However, trueheal is something that has to be planned for, and a good portion of the time you are going to die anyway. EIther because 10 seconds is not enough, another tactic to kill you was used, or you don't have 10power to trueheal with. With Lich, it's a sure thing that it's going to work, every single time, and you are going to get away more than half of those times.

EDIT: Also, trueheal is prevented by some skills, such as pinleg. If you're pinlegged, you can't trueheal.

As for the difference between shielding and barrier... come on. I wasn't aware that evoking pentagram would refill your health and mana, cure most of your afflictions (I think it should be all afflictions except the ones that couldn't be cured anyways), and put up an unbreakable barrier. I know I'd rather have a prismatic barrier than a shield when faced with four garwights or three adoraths.

As unbiased as I can be with this:

- Make is so Mag's construct does not give lich to everyone, or give trueheal to all of Celest's citizens.
- Downgrade Mag's construct to be more on par with Celest's construct.
- Switch Mag and Celest's construct. All of Celest can have lich, and Mag can have... faster shielding. Keep it this way for 1 in game year and see how the other side feels.

The TH for Angelfont won't happen. I am not sure if you were around when a thread went from 0-30 pages in less than 24hours with tons of people from different orgs going nuts about TH for all.

By downgrading it you mean giving us 5 prayers to use, Making lich cost 0p for Necromancers. Allowing Necromancers to soul rezz people from their org for maybe 5p. Having the crypt give an aura that absorbs all damage types. Some skill like benediction which can stack with other players skill so 5 people in the room can put it up. (Yes some of the things aren't useful for some people, while some are. That isn't the point though, so please don't make a whole benediction is useless response. I was making a point that they stacked or so I was told.)

I am sure if we switched constructs (which also won't happen due to Lusternia wanting to keep RP a high thing instead of skills being the priority) that each side will find benifits and also drawbacks to the skills. Like I said earlier, each construct has perks to it and downsides to it and continuing this grass is greener mentality is meaningless. That is not to say I don't think lich is nice. But what I am saying is that while Lich looks nice to you, TH and Sacrifice look nice to others, and the Angelfont looks nice to others as well

If Lich were contained to two guilds, I really would not have any complaints. But -all of Mag- has it. That's what really bites the bullet. Don't nerf Lich, nerf the construct. The constructs were just a bad idea in general.

I would just like to point out, malice-free, that Vathael's general post is correct. However, trueheal is something that has to be planned for, and a good portion of the time you are going to die anyway. EIther because 10 seconds is not enough, another tactic to kill you was used, or you don't have 10power to trueheal with. With Lich, it's a sure thing that it's going to work, every single time, and you are going to get away more than half of those times.

The same could be said for the other side arguing about lich though. A good portion of the time you are going to die anyway. Lich will work every time unless stripped, but it costs 10p to put up, 10p when it fires, you lose all your defs, and have a 10-15 second (I can't remember how long it is now) equil/balance recovery time in which you cannot do anything after you reform. So saying 10seconds behind a barrier isn't enough time, think about 10seconds with no defs and no barriers while a demesne hits you and people are rushing to you. If more than 2 people find you (1 if it is a Forren or a Geb finding you) in this state = dead. On top of competent Celest fighters tend to keep flamed eye sigils on them. I have seen Narsrim kill me and instantly through flamed eye sigils in all directions so I couldn't even move. It comes down to being prepared. Trust me, if I was fighting a lich I would always keep flamed eye's with me. And I have would have an alias to throw them in every direction possible.

Also, Vathael, Celestines cannot take lowmagic, which has the Serpent ability. Trueheal is only a 10 second barrier anyway. The fault in Sacraments is that some skills were made for Paladins, whereas others were made for Celestines, so you end up with a skill that's been split in two, one half being useless for one guild, and vis versa. I don't believe Nihilists/Ur'guard have this hinderance, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Again TH is a 10sec barrier, while Lich is a 10sec no barrier/no equilibrium/balance.
Again the same can be said about Necromancy. The fault in Necromancy is that it seems to have been made for primarily Nihilists. Some of them may have been made for Ur'Guard but the majority is made for equilibrium classes aka a Nihilist.
Now if we go with that logic, wouldn't that mean Necromancy is worse for an Ur'Guard than Sacraments is for a Paladin? If we went the other way, with Necromancy being reasonably split down the middle for use by Ur'Guard and Nihilists. We are back to being in the same boat for warriors that take Sacraments and warriors who take Necromancy. So it would be either the same or worse (depending on what people think of Necromancy) for the Ur'Guard.

I'm interested in hearing some Divine thoughts on this, especially Estarra's. I'm still wondering what she was thinking giving lich to an entire city.

EDIT: Also, trueheal is prevented by some skills, such as pinleg. If you're pinlegged, you can't trueheal.

Can someone post a picture of a field with a fence in it. It seems like no one understand the whole grass is greener thing. It looks different, but BOTH the skills have up and downsides to them.

Giving Liches a minor XP loss on death and Avenger status seems to be what many Lich users are willing to do. But I get the impression that alot of people don't want that to happen.

You can argue about lich and trueheal all day and no one is going to make progress...but if you want to compare Celest's construct to Mag's construct, Ildy-poo, it ain't gonna end well for you.

Nihilists won't be able to take Lowmagic. Ur'Guard, like Paladins, can take either Lowmagic or Highmagic. And Ur'Guard, like Nihilists, share the Necromancy skill. (Paladins and Ur'Guard can both take Tracking instead.)

A lot of people can use those ten seconds to escape with Catacombs or a cubix, or even start running away after their afflictions disappear. As for Lich working all the time- even if you like popping back with zero defs, all your active power stripped, and off equilibrium while someone is trying to chase you, bear in mind that in PVP both Lichseed and your Lich form can be stripped away by Inquisition. And it's impossible to put back up again during the fight if you enjoy staying alive. Pinleg sucks, but there isn't a lot that can completely block someone from using Trueheal, as long as they have 10 power. And even then, I'd be willing to say that Pinleg shouldn't block you from using Trueheal. Your power levels should be the only requirement.

For Nihilist/Ur'guard, I meant that their Necromancy skill is more balanced than Sacraments. But again, not 100% sure on that since I have fallen out of playing my nihilist character lately.

Not all Celestines have cubixes... in fact, I don't think there's one who does aside of Narsrim, who's new to the guild. Catacombs is not always an option, since not every Celestine is a tarot user. Also, throwing a Catacombs would break the barrier, throwing you off balance and waiting for it to go up. Also, you might be fighting in Celestia, where a Catacombs is useless. It does not work like Serpent for trueheal barrier -- once you do ANYTHING, it's down and it's down for good, it doesn't spring back up. Just so we're clear!

Not everyone has Inquisition, either, just keep that in mind.

Not answering Ildy-poo's post. 'cause we've been on this merry go-round too long and I'm about to throw up.

So I'm done. :|

Problems With Compairing Lich is they always always always Compair lich to TH. Now the thing people are compairing now isnt the normal Trans skill liche its the effect you get for 10p from the crypt so the thing is you shouldn't nerf liche or nerf TH or buff th or whatever Celest needs its sweetfont? or i guess i dont remember the name buffed-edited- not become a TH.