Well this thread is proving quite hard to wrap a mind around.

We have a group of people who are taking the chance to lord over people who don't bash as well as they do and provide their very supportive commentary.

From this group we have people who are arguing if anything should happen, the experience loss from death should be increased (making death matter more)

Most of these people and other members of the original group are arguing that by implementing a death affliction the effect of death will be worsened (again made to matter more)

However these people still are adamantly opposed to the implementation of a system which will make death actually matter to them, though they are quite happy for a system where by they are affected less than others to continue.

Also those that are trying to argue that this thread is not about death as a deterrent to participation in the game please just read the title a few times.

I had to read it three times, but on the third go around, I must say.. well written!

Saran - You're missing one vital point here that ties things together. Experience loss on death is something delayed and does not have a significant immediate effect (unless of course you're dropping from demigod to titan, titan to a mortal, or 80 to 79), however any kind of affliction in replacement of experience loss on death does. The immediate effect would be absolutely counter to the intent of the change (encouraging people to participate in organizational conflict) because after the first death they would always be at an immediate disadvantage if they decide to reinitiate combat thus making it less worthwhile to fight a second round. An experience loss does not do this even if some bashing time is lost.

I see this sollution as fixing 4 long going complaints.

1. lich/transmigrate/etc.
2. Raids being "impossible"
3. "being forced to pray"
4. There being direct consequences to reckless behaviour

It has maybe one problem.
1. Making defending the second time around harder.

@Gregori: You definitely could have done better than that. Granted you were faeling (as opposed to human), and may not have had harmony. As a human with harmony, I managed >5% per hour in the Undervault at about 94/95.

And I don't get why bashing is such a hard thing to do. The issue that has been pointed out is that it's hard for people who don't bash as much to fight, because they lose more experience than they can usually gain. But if you're going to be fighting, you'll need to bash to a decent level anyway. You don't go into a fight at level 5 and expect to come out alive.

And yet you have no idea how many times I've told novices that no, they can't go pvp straight out of Newton's.

Mostly to Daganev, but also to others wondering about the disjunction regarding the triviality of xp loss: Yes, people are saying xp loss is trivial, but I go back to my soccer coaching analogy. A piece of candy is damn trivial in the grand scheme of things, just like the current level of xp loss. However, the effect is still there. As evidenced by the vast quantity of debate and, dare I say whining, that goes on over xp loss and prevention thereof, even the current, tiny amount of loss is still at least psychologically important. In fact, that's what I think the foundation of the whole anti-lich debate is: Lich = no xp loss = no (dis)incentive.

While it's not big enough to have an adverse effect on your playing style, combat viability, whatever, there still is a sense of loss involved when you die and lose some xp. In my eyes, the xp loss isn't there so much to -hurt- (which is what I think people are trying to say it should be doing) but to be the piece of candy, a small incentive that doesn't cripple you or make you god-like but still has a psychological effect. Yes there will be exceptions (Ascendants and other... people) but that's still going to be the case no matter what happens.

This is arguably a partial solution, if done in a roundabout way. Though I don't think the original intent of this skill really was meant to address death via no experience loss. I was under the impression that no change would be made to those skills as the change is meant to further mitigate experience loss. If that is not so, then perhaps you can make a case with this point.



Huh? This change does not address raids being possible or impossible in any way whatsoever. Free discretionary powers are what make raiding off-plane insanely hard, not experience loss.



There's already a number of ways to mitigate experience loss and the playerbase has been pretty good at not pushing things too far for this to happen with much frequency, barring a limited number of examples. Praying should be a part of the game.



Same as point 1, reckless behavior is encouraged when skills exist which allow a person to entirely escape any loss 100% or near 100% of the time. I don't believe this change is really meant to address the issue of death and resurrection via the various death escaping skills.



This is a critical problem as the basis of the change surrounds this. We've since moved pretty far away from the original intent of the post which is to address the fact that the administration has heard complaints from less experienced or newer players that participating in organizational conflict is overly difficult. By making things more difficult the second time, you are no longer addressing the original concern and instead fulfilling some other agenda. In addition, my post several pages back details alternative reasons which are much more significant in holding newer players back from participating in conflict at all including the high cost of necessary goods, the need for a working system, and high training costs. All of these are entirely more detrimental to a starting player than any experience loss (most of which can be pretty easily regained at lower and higher levels). The only significant difficulty in regaining lost experience is around the level 78-80 area, in my experience, though opinions may vary, of course.

I am well aware I could have done far better for experience than I did. I was making a point, that at my level bashing places far below my level for less than 1 hour (because people were complaining that if they only have an hour to bash they take days and days to get back experience), that it is entirely possible to maintain positive experience bashing midbie areas. If I wanted to prove I can bash undervault and make a lot of experience I would have gone and got a Harmony blessing, used my cameo and changed to human, and then bashed and done side quests that give experience.

The point though was to show that limiting myself, purposely bashing in areas meant for mid-level people I could generate a positive experience count after dying, and if I can do it generating about .02% per denizen, than people who should be bashing there gaining .10+% should be doing it faster in that hour than me. Though, you do bring up a valid point about Karma buffs, Harmony speeds up that experience gain even more, and those players who are human have even less trouble yet maintaining their experience gain.

ok fix to our pvp problem whenever anyone dies everyone in the game gets peaced for 10 in game hours.

I don't even know if you're being serious of not.

Oh, he's being serious alright.

Dead serious.

Thats great for candy, since its a possitive reinforcement. However, here, its a completely negetive reinforcement which makes me not want to continue playing. It does nothing to boost my sense of "oh gee, I'll be more carefull next time." Its more of a feeling of "Oh great, there goes another hour down the drain." followed by "Why do I even bother anyways?"

All other areas of the game, what I do is not lost as if it never happened. If I accomplish a goal, I know that that goal is forever accomplished, no longer how long I go idle or mess up. Its a virtual save point in a game with no save points.

But until you have experienced the feeling of "I did this 2 years ago, why am I doing it again now" you will have no idea what I'm talking about.

Thats for when it actually does matter that you lost experience. As for when it doesn't matter if experience is lost or not, then it also doesn't affect my reckless behaviour. I have sent mysefl on suicidal runs into Faethorn many times. Knowing that I was losing lots of xp, but being confident that I could easily make it back up again. It was not a deterant in any shape or form.

Basically, I want stupid behaviour to be discourage, and I want accidents to be glossed over and forgoten. Not the other way around.

IN the current system, I gloss over xp loss when I'm being an annoying prick, and I get really upset when my experience loss is a "dumb mistake."

With the proposed stat losses, I forsee myself being unable to act like a prick as much, and glossing over the stat loss when its a one time mistake that I wasn't prepared for.

After thinking about it more, the current system is really quite backwards.



It was direclty listed as one of the advantages in the first post, and one of the main reasons I liked the idea.

I guess it just depends on how you see the emphasis of hte idea. But whatever the original intention of the idea, as you look at it, you can see new and or different pros and cons. Thats the whole point of discussing things!

If I decide to dig a whole in an attempt to search for oil in a place that is known for burried treausre, then why stop digging just because I find out there is no oil, but there is still treasure?

edit: Just remember that one of the reaons why people don't like to get involved in big group combats is because if they do, they become subject to being jumped and killed while out hunting. Removing the xp loss from death, makes this sort of retribution less painfull to the person being killed. especially if done multiple times, over and over again.

:cringe:

Gaining Circles is built to be a fluid thing-- it's not ever supposed to be a ladder that, once you climb, you can never go down again. People put way, way, way too much emphasis on what circle they are at. Really, aside from 80, 99, and 100, it doesn't really matter what circle you are at. And if you make it that high, you should know how to get back anyway, even if it takes you a while.

The problem of being jumped multiple times after a raid is in my view a separate problem. Removing XP loss doesn't fix that problem-- in fact, it will make it worse. Why should anyone stop ganking a person, if they won't lose anything anyway? If people complain about being jumped while bashing now, it will only be worse when the jumper gets nothing at all out of it. Every time they leave their nation they will be killed and forced to pray. But they don't lose anything, so the next time they set out, a gank squad will get them again, because they aren't losing anything. "They'll lose their stats"-- for an hour, and all they have to do is sit around and do nothing at all, and then poof, they are right back where they started.

The problem is not that they are losing experience when they are getting jumped, it's that they are getting repeatedly jumped. And most nations are now trying to reign that in. The bounty system is a great idea-- it keeps track of who has been properly punished for their raid so that (in theory) people won't get ganked a dozen times (unless you were really, really an a$$hat, in which case, good luck). The problem needs to be addressed from its source, not from an obtuse angle that, while maybe stopping the problem, causes too many of its own.

The bounty system isn't really that great an idea. All it does is say, "Hey, these guys are worth money. Oh, look, there are a bunch of little people on the list. Well, I guess we all know who is going to have the bounty collected on them, while the people who led it get off scot-free..." It just encourages the jumping of the littler folk by giving a reward for it.

Idea: Make death cost X Endurance and X Willpower where X is your current level times 100.

Then perhaps bounties should be weighted-- a little amount of gold, say 2000, for freshly out of novicehood player Z who goes on a raid, while a bounty of 100,000 gold or 40 credits for the head of Forren the Grieferfish.

Though with or without a bounty, the little people in a raid are going to be picked on anyway. I defended against Thoros a while back (or maybe I was in an actual raid.. can't remember, I don't do that hardly EVER), and the next time I went out on the road, Thoros jumped me and killed me in 7 seconds flat. I"m weak, and squishy. I knew it was coming, so I wasn't all that pissed. I don't even think he made me pray, or if he did, it didn't bother me. And that was the end of it. I never got any more grief from it.

Correct.

It's just that, with a bounty, you're encouraging it to happen more so than it would have otherwise.

From re reading some of this. Has this turned into a round about way to try and nerf Lich without giving it any actual benefits (real stat boosts that are not at night, avenger protection like everyone else, etc)??

If that is the case..... What a sad place this game has become.
If that isn't the case..... carry on.... and install Permadeath. Make your actions have consequences. Let Forren die and end up circle 1 again. I am quite sure that will be interesting

Heh, seems nobody thought of influencers so here goes. How will this affect loss of experience on losing an influence battle with a denizen? This is pretty much officially the fastest way you can get down to circle 1 again simply by standing there, let me give you a brief example from the harmony event.

Now, influence a mob and in the middle of everything someone runs in and debates while your ego is at half, efficiently shattering you in one blow (Demi's woo) following this up by by using telepathy (or whatever that skillset is called again). During this time the denizen will have argued with you three more times, each resulting in the same exp loss as an initial death, then you die and lose experience from that, vitae and die again. Followed by praying. Sans, an experience loss carnival. (I have no idea if the mob part is a misweave or not, Nariah kept refilling my ego, and the mob kept hitting me down to 0 after losing the debate for some reason. As they normally become smug and stop.)

Now what would happen on a loss if this change was implemented, would the experience loss be removed and replaced with some affliction?