Karnagan2008-02-13 17:50:30
QUOTE(Gregori @ Feb 13 2008, 02:05 PM) 486207
I have never denied or refuted any other factors involved in bashing to demigod. I am more than aware that skills, time, artifacts all have a role in it. This still does not negate the fact that my bucket is filled faster (well it would be if I was still a transmigrator, now my bucket has a hole in it)
Yeah, and sorry if my tone was a little sharp earlier. Obviously a lack of holes, or a lack of large holes, will help fill a bucket. My contention was that it wasn't the major factor, and isn't a factor at all to a lot of people in the game, possibly the majority.
Ildaudid2008-02-13 18:25:38
I guess one thing would be with skill level loss, make it only effect guild skills. Or make it so it does not effect Planar. That way people won't lose conglut.
Shamarah2008-02-13 18:37:35
QUOTE(Gregori @ Feb 13 2008, 12:02 PM) 486188
If person A pees in a bucket with a hole in it and person B pees in a bucket without a hole in it. Whose bucket is filled first?
Gregori! You won an award!
Forren2008-02-13 18:40:04
QUOTE(Shamarah @ Feb 13 2008, 01:37 PM) 486229
Gregori! You won an award!
It actually makes sense when you think about it. Don't dismiss it merely because it's about peeing into buckets.
Shamarah2008-02-13 18:41:47
Sure, it makes sense, but that doesn't stop it from sucking.
Kaalak2008-02-13 19:31:37
So I'm curious. Why not make the potential new death mechanic optional?
What would be the problem with some people losing xp under the current mechanic and others choosing the skill/stat/whatever
loss? How would this imbalance the game?
What would be the problem with some people losing xp under the current mechanic and others choosing the skill/stat/whatever
loss? How would this imbalance the game?
Daganev2008-02-13 19:52:03
QUOTE(Gregori @ Feb 13 2008, 05:32 AM) 486139
If Billy Bob wants/chooses to get involved in PK. Billy Bob should man up and face the consequences of doing so.
That's been a problem in Lusternia since day 1. Everyone wants to make a choice, but nobody wants to face the consequences of making that choice. So babysitter functions get put in.
Example: Visaeris and the archways in Ethereal. He chose to stand where he could be attacked then complain about the fact he could be attacked there, when all he had to do was move/shield, choose to be elsewhere, and then before we knew it we had archways.
Person makes a choice.
Choice has consequences.
Person complains about the consequences until they are removed by some means.
Now before you say "but not everyone chooses to get involved in PK, it just happens" let me say, that is a load of crap. Plenty of people in Lusternia have never been involved in PK, or after facing the consequences of it have removed themselves from it with little trouble.
As for bashing; losing experience to bashing is most often 1 of 3 things.
1: bashing out of your league (your fault)
2: being DC'd (not your fault)
3: having aggressive mobs come in and storm you (see 1)
Smart bashers almost never die and the experience lost to bashing is minimal, even if you have to pray, which is almost non-existent nowadays.
As far as "no EXPloss won't mean more demigods." You are wrong.
As a former transmigrator I can say without a shadow of doubt that my rise from level 76 to 90+ in short order ( and I would have reached demigod shortly after that if I hadn't left for 2 years) was due to no EXPloss. It enabled me to bash recklessly, gaining fast exp and not caring if I died. If I ran out of power to transmigrate I bashed lower places till I could draw power again and transmigrate once more.
This change would be the same thing. People can bash recklessly, if they die they just bash lower places till the stat loss wears off. It increases the speed with which a person levels. It does this for everyone. Casual bashers, active bashers, or religious bashers.
And yes, someday there will be a lot of demigods, that is what happens when EXPloss gets nerfed so badly, due to complaints about it, but exp gains are kept constant... people level faster. So now we want to increase that percentage once more and further increase the speed with which people attain levels/demigod. Making it as "cool" as getting Dragon in Achaea. Which, as most Achaean's can tell you, is about as special as stubbing your toe nowadays.
That's been a problem in Lusternia since day 1. Everyone wants to make a choice, but nobody wants to face the consequences of making that choice. So babysitter functions get put in.
Example: Visaeris and the archways in Ethereal. He chose to stand where he could be attacked then complain about the fact he could be attacked there, when all he had to do was move/shield, choose to be elsewhere, and then before we knew it we had archways.
Person makes a choice.
Choice has consequences.
Person complains about the consequences until they are removed by some means.
Now before you say "but not everyone chooses to get involved in PK, it just happens" let me say, that is a load of crap. Plenty of people in Lusternia have never been involved in PK, or after facing the consequences of it have removed themselves from it with little trouble.
As for bashing; losing experience to bashing is most often 1 of 3 things.
1: bashing out of your league (your fault)
2: being DC'd (not your fault)
3: having aggressive mobs come in and storm you (see 1)
Smart bashers almost never die and the experience lost to bashing is minimal, even if you have to pray, which is almost non-existent nowadays.
As far as "no EXPloss won't mean more demigods." You are wrong.
As a former transmigrator I can say without a shadow of doubt that my rise from level 76 to 90+ in short order ( and I would have reached demigod shortly after that if I hadn't left for 2 years) was due to no EXPloss. It enabled me to bash recklessly, gaining fast exp and not caring if I died. If I ran out of power to transmigrate I bashed lower places till I could draw power again and transmigrate once more.
This change would be the same thing. People can bash recklessly, if they die they just bash lower places till the stat loss wears off. It increases the speed with which a person levels. It does this for everyone. Casual bashers, active bashers, or religious bashers.
And yes, someday there will be a lot of demigods, that is what happens when EXPloss gets nerfed so badly, due to complaints about it, but exp gains are kept constant... people level faster. So now we want to increase that percentage once more and further increase the speed with which people attain levels/demigod. Making it as "cool" as getting Dragon in Achaea. Which, as most Achaean's can tell you, is about as special as stubbing your toe nowadays.
Very convincing arguments. All the more reason not to bother playing Lusternia anymore. Might as well just log in every few months and read the events posts.
Daganev2008-02-13 19:55:19
QUOTE(Forren @ Feb 13 2008, 10:40 AM) 486231
It actually makes sense when you think about it. Don't dismiss it merely because it's about peeing into buckets.
Not really.
If person A has a bucket with a hole in it, and person B does not, but person A is using a Firehose and person B is using a squirt gun, person A will fill up the bucket faster.
Firehose = desire to bash
squirt gun = just bashing to get the required level 80 so they can survive and not spend half of thier online time trying to nap or find food. Or just bashing to get gold so they can buy credits.
Unknown2008-02-13 20:03:25
QUOTE(Sojiro @ Feb 12 2008, 07:58 PM) 486044
If we're going to implement this, but it shouldn't mess with Planar, hell, probably not skills in general. I'd be down with repeated stat losses and maybe even eq/balance reductions after x more deaths within x amount of time. This should all probably happen only in enemy territory/ non neutral areas, however.
I agree with the standardization of exp loss more than removing exp loss altogether, however.
I agree with the standardization of exp loss more than removing exp loss altogether, however.
*nudge nudge*
As an addendum: The exp loss from deaths in neutral territories should increase as well as the usual 'lich/transmigrate/rebirth should cost xp anyway' argument.
Xavius2008-02-13 20:08:31
If you're a hardcore basher, having your str, int, and con all drop by 4-6 for an hour of online time is going to put a bigger dent in your race to 100 more than a sacrifice/resurgem/immolate death.
Daganev2008-02-13 20:10:00
One thing that Wow Implemneted which I was really impressed about, and which got me thinking of even trying thier game, was the fact that how much XP you earned was scaled over time logged in. It made it sound like it was possible for someone who can only play a few hours a day to actually enjoy the game and progress and a good rate.
If Lusternia didn't require so much bashing for the other IC activities it would really be a much better game.
Whenever I sit down and think about what I can do in the game, I find it always comes down to either spending 5+ hours a day online so that I can be involved in the politics, or spending my time bashing to collect the materials needed to enjoy arena spars or raids.
A person doesn't have to spend 5+ hours a day to be involved in raids or spars or anything of the like. They can spend 2 hours a day and PK to thier hearts content. However, they can't if most of thier time is spent bashing to get back to where they were 18 months ago.
Lusternia is allready so complex and amazing that XP gained from a very OOC thing like bashing shouldn't be something that actually makes a person not want to play. (Which in my case it very much has.)
If Lusternia didn't require so much bashing for the other IC activities it would really be a much better game.
Whenever I sit down and think about what I can do in the game, I find it always comes down to either spending 5+ hours a day online so that I can be involved in the politics, or spending my time bashing to collect the materials needed to enjoy arena spars or raids.
A person doesn't have to spend 5+ hours a day to be involved in raids or spars or anything of the like. They can spend 2 hours a day and PK to thier hearts content. However, they can't if most of thier time is spent bashing to get back to where they were 18 months ago.
Lusternia is allready so complex and amazing that XP gained from a very OOC thing like bashing shouldn't be something that actually makes a person not want to play. (Which in my case it very much has.)
Forren2008-02-13 20:11:11
QUOTE(daganev @ Feb 13 2008, 02:55 PM) 486259
Not really.
If person A has a bucket with a hole in it, and person B does not, but person A is using a Firehose and person B is using a squirt gun, person A will fill up the bucket faster.
Firehose = desire to bash
squirt gun = just bashing to get the required level 80 so they can survive and not spend half of thier online time trying to nap or find food. Or just bashing to get gold so they can buy credits.
If person A has a bucket with a hole in it, and person B does not, but person A is using a Firehose and person B is using a squirt gun, person A will fill up the bucket faster.
Firehose = desire to bash
squirt gun = just bashing to get the required level 80 so they can survive and not spend half of thier online time trying to nap or find food. Or just bashing to get gold so they can buy credits.
See earlier post about rate of pee in bucket vs rate of pee spilling on pants.
Xavius2008-02-13 20:15:50
To be fair, the level cap in WoW is where the game starts more than where it ends. High end raiding requires more sacrifices than a Lusty demigod makes. My cousin literally scheduled his life around raid days for almost a year. It's also designed so that high level and low level characters are fairly segregated, which they can do because of the larger playerbase. It's also designed around PvE. If you haven't noticed, Lusty's PvE is horrible, kinda like WoW's PvP is horrible. I don't know how much you can compare the advancement schemes of each.
Daganev2008-02-13 20:19:02
I decided to check out my vote weight, to see if my observation that my play time has really decreased dramatically after dropping below level 80 or if I was just imagining things for the sake of this thread.
When I last checked, my vote weight was 7. Now I find it is 5. Not sure how big of a jump that is, but I often find myself logging off whenever I get the sleepy or hunger messages.
When I last checked, my vote weight was 7. Now I find it is 5. Not sure how big of a jump that is, but I often find myself logging off whenever I get the sleepy or hunger messages.
Unknown2008-02-13 20:29:53
QUOTE(Gregori @ Feb 13 2008, 09:40 AM) 486148
If you really want to do something that will have effect on players and their ability to cope in Lusternia, increase the number of lessons earned per level to 10 and make it retroactive.
Lusternia is by far the most lesson intensive IRE there is in order to gain an even keel with anyone in combat.
Edit:
Because it was brought to my attention I will change my above statement.
Lusternia is by far the most lesson intensive IRE there is.
Roughly speaking Achaea = 3400ish credits to omnitrans
Lusternia = 5100ish
I would say that doubling lessons gain completely(from levels and receiving bound credits at levels, but not conversion of credits to lessons) would be a far better change to Lusternia than removing experience loss.
Lusternia is by far the most lesson intensive IRE there is in order to gain an even keel with anyone in combat.
Edit:
Because it was brought to my attention I will change my above statement.
Lusternia is by far the most lesson intensive IRE there is.
Roughly speaking Achaea = 3400ish credits to omnitrans
Lusternia = 5100ish
I would say that doubling lessons gain completely(from levels and receiving bound credits at levels, but not conversion of credits to lessons) would be a far better change to Lusternia than removing experience loss.
Better changes:
Discipline and Environment be merged into a single skill. (Possibly have Discipline speed capped at Fabled Discipline, rather than Transcendant.)
Resilience and Magic be made into mini-skills.
(Unrelated to combat) Dramatics, Arts, Riding and Aethercraft be made into mini-skills.
Gwylifar2008-02-13 20:31:22
I like the idea of breaking out of the assumption that the penalty for death has to be "loss of bashing time". That assumption is so pervasive in IRE and other places that it's hard to get people out from seeing it. A truedisfavor-equivalent, or something like it, is a clever solution for a new penalty; I don't know if it might be too much or not enough, but that's a "mere" matter of balancing. But I like the mere idea of breaking out of the preconception of xp loss as the only possible penalty. I'm in favor on general principles, and for the sake of enjoying watching you try to jolt people out of that preconception, into realizing that a different kind of penalty is still a penalty, and can be better or worse, and can be just as valid.
Xenthos2008-02-13 20:31:30
QUOTE(Gregori @ Feb 13 2008, 11:22 AM) 486170
Uh no, concern not addressed, stat loss doesn't mean I stop bashing, it means I shift where I bash for 30 minutes. Just like when I ran out of power to transmigrate it didn't stop me bashing, it shifted where I bashed.
As I stated in my post previous.
As I stated in my post previous.
Uh, yes, concern is addressed-- because if you shift your bashing to something less suicidal, you're not making as much as you would otherwise. Just like when you run out of power for transmigration. Your experience gain is lowered for a while.
And yes, that analogy is pretty awful. You really shouldn't keep supporting it, Forren!
Tekora2008-02-13 20:35:36
You know, I've only read the first two pages of this thread, but it seems like all the discussion is just the same old song and dance of the elite few choosing what's best for everyone.
"Never mind the multitude of Level 60-70 players that can't get over the hump because they don't spend hours bashing, increase XP loss from death anyways, us uber-players can just bash it back plenty easy."
Can we have another, separate thread? Same topic, but players that have hit Titan/Demigod can't post.
"Never mind the multitude of Level 60-70 players that can't get over the hump because they don't spend hours bashing, increase XP loss from death anyways, us uber-players can just bash it back plenty easy."
Can we have another, separate thread? Same topic, but players that have hit Titan/Demigod can't post.
Eldanien2008-02-13 20:38:19
I don't have a titan/demigod character. I think xp gain is too easy. I think xp loss should be greater across the board, and made equal.
I also think keeping Demigod shouldn't be hard, but shouldn't be a given also. But then, I'm not there, so perhaps my opinion doesn't apply so much in that case.
I also think keeping Demigod shouldn't be hard, but shouldn't be a given also. But then, I'm not there, so perhaps my opinion doesn't apply so much in that case.
Xenthos2008-02-13 20:38:39
QUOTE(Tekora @ Feb 13 2008, 03:35 PM) 486285
You know, I've only read the first two pages of this thread, but it seems like all the discussion is just the same old song and dance of the elite few choosing what's best for everyone.
"Never mind the multitude of Level 60-70 players that can't get over the hump because they don't spend hours bashing, increase XP loss from death anyways, us uber-players can just bash it back plenty easy."
Can we have another, separate thread? Same topic, but players that have hit Titan/Demigod can't post.
"Never mind the multitude of Level 60-70 players that can't get over the hump because they don't spend hours bashing, increase XP loss from death anyways, us uber-players can just bash it back plenty easy."
Can we have another, separate thread? Same topic, but players that have hit Titan/Demigod can't post.
There does seem to be a pretty clear line drawn in opinions between heavy bashers and non-heavy-bashers (though there are, as always, a few exceptions).
