Judge, Absolve, Soulless.

A lot more options than most guilds have. Not degrading the log, just stating that comment is a bit weak.

Soulless without Inquisition isn't really 'easy', though.

EDIT: Man, I noob'd up there pretty well.

Absolving a faeling is already hard enough. Considering Revan is a very high level, it's even more difficult-also, to slow down curing well enough to get an absolve, you would have to use a different angel combination, which would have allowed him to attack, so absolve was out of the question.

Judgement is stopped by, among other things, proning and stunning-two of which are very important to Monk combat. This also takes too long to leave a monk unhindered to work and gives multiple warning messages, in which time they would easily (if their normal forms already hadn't) proned or stunned you. If all else fails, they could easily walk out with nothing but passive hindering (and during a judgement spell, you'll only have your angel hit once).

So, you see, soulless is the only option in this scenario.

Inquisition/absolve is impossible. You can theoritically inquisition, wait for 8 power, and THEN try to absolve-but your target would hopefully (for them) be long gone or have enough defenses to return the fight. Also, absolves are best done quickly-by the time you've inquisitioned someone, your fool, enigma, and wrath will be gone, leaving you with no way to effectively pull off the quick absolve.

I totally edited before you posted (yea, I realized my mistake like 10 seconds after, hehe).

Not too bad a fight. It kinda sucks there wasnt more of a fight back as thats usually what makes things difficult. Celestine invests are full shut downs for monks. Yay vapors/peace and shieldstun with it?

Next time Revan shall have to make it a good un!

Vapors wasn't used. And vapors wouldn't stop a monk, anyway. Shieldstun doesn't stop a monk, only a faeling. And stun doesn't stop forms anyway. Everything I did could have been managed by Revan had he put some thought into his combat instead of relying on the true trainingwheels class to do everything for him.

Celestines have skills which make absolve/judgement very, very easy to accomplish. If it is your failure as to why you can't do anything other than the easy, cheap inquisition/soulless combo, you fail. As proven by my earlier log and our prior fights, there is no skill in what you do. If you can live long enough to land the combo, you win.

I would laugh to see you as any other archtype.

There are logs of you as Celestine, using inquisition/soulless for the kill. Pretty often. Judgement is fine, but easily halted. If your target is so messed up to where they can't escape or even stop judge, then what does it even matter? Absolve can be done and would require a lot more work. It requires 8p, even if you miss the opportunity. Most capable curers can keep their mana up. I'd say wrack is a bit easier and doesn't it cost 0p on fail? It's funny. You used to defend inquisition when you had it, Thoros. You even once stated that it took some skill to fight as a Celestine, when people questioned your ability. Now you're saying differently

PS. You and Talkan should snuggle and be nice to each other IC! You're brothers!

What exactly are you basing wrack being a bit easier on?

I think active and passive shackles is pretty nice. Thoros has pulled it off with some ease and a few others. I think the fact that it costs 0p if you miss is definitely a bonus. Even with it costing 5p, a nihilist could quicken, drain, quicken, drain, wrack. Without contemplate, you don't want to take a chance with absolve. I think Nihilists are very powerful. Only a few have really mastered it. On the same token, there haven't been that many top Celestine fighters, which surprises me. Guardian is win, imo.

Not everyone has active shackles, and almost anyone is going to have a standcheck when not aeoned and start writhing immediately when given it either way, regardless. It's still less effective no matter what it's invested with when compared to stun+sprawl alongside paralysis in terms of proning. That as it may, it in no way makes up for the added stipulation of needing them prone on top of half mana to pull it off.

You realize shackles stacks with other forms of hindering. Hangman/web for instance. Anyhow it depends on how you look at it. The shackles upgrade in past was to make it easier to meet that requirement, for wrack. I don't think it's so bad. I also explained in the previous post how much better a 5p instantkill with no power loss on fail is not so bad.

You quoted me saying active shackles!

And yes, yes I was aware of them stacking. Unfortunately you'd be surprised just how much summer/tipheret unstacks them. Not to mention that while you're stacking them, you're certainly not draining mana.

I've played other archetypes, and done fairly well with them for the short time that I did it.

I'd like to know what skills you think Celestines have that make it 'very, very easy' to stop someone from keeping judgement from finishing.
As I've proven in this log with Revan, there is a great deal of skill in what I do. I've posted other logs where I've easily handled myself and the opponent (many of them were you). My favorite one on one kill is still absolve, and I do it fairly often, even as a human.

If anyone can come up with a real reason why I should have tried to judge or absolve a faeling monk (what level are you revan? High 80's? Low 90's?) with as much mana as he has, or with the stunning and proning forms that are gauranteed to happen, plus as I've shown in the log with Ethelon, Revan would be able to attack almost 6 times uninterrupted while I was judging him.

If you, Thoros, think I should have judged or absolved Revan, it is you that has no skill, not I.




Timing shackles with a wrack isn't too difficult. I've often been able to continue draining the mana from the victim well past 50%, which a nihilist would be more than capable of if they needed to wait for their demon to attack with shackles. With proper timing, you could instantly kill someone before they could writhe, even at size one, or with contort.

Yeah, I missed the 'active' part and edited.

EDIT: A mugwumpie with a Nifilhema symbol (which anyone can have) can shackle much faster than anyone can writhe (exception: contortion). You can shackle and regain equilibrium before most people can hit you (in fact, against sizes 8 and above, this will happen every single time). The benefit to Wrack is that the power cost is only 5p. This allows you to quicken, leech/amission, quicken, leech/amissio, web/shackles (or time your demon to hit with web or paralyse) and wrack. If you screw up, you don't lose power. However, as you have the added benefit of being able to quicken twice before you wrack vs. Celestines who can only quicken once (absolve costs 8p), it's much easier to take down someone's mana. This isn't to say Wrack is easy. Never said that. It's also worthwhile to note that "sticking" afflictions (specifically passive afflictions) tends to be easier when you have more of them. A wrathed angel has 2 afflictions per 8 seconds. That's the extent of a Celestine's passive offense. A scourged demon has 2 afflictions plus contagion plus coldaura plus tail sting.

I used it when I was a Celestine. Did I defend it? Not really. I disliked the ability as a Celestine because it completely haults the offensive of the target, immediately forcing them to turn their tactic on retreating. If not, what happens? Infidel, followed by inquisition. It's a rather lame tactic with no way to fight against it. When I was Celestine, I avoided going straight to inquisition, and rather used heretic and infidel for affliction stacking power; combined with the right afflictions and aeon, which then leaves the Celestine open for damage, absolve, or judgement. A skill which strips all your defenses and leaves you completely helpless for 10-12 seconds is just wrong, and there is no skill involved in using heretic, hampering the target for infidel, mashing infidel, and then hampering the target for inquisition.

No, just...no. Poor guardians. They, along with wiccans, were left in the dust when bards and monks came along.

Says the Celestine.

Infidel/Inquisition should be given affliction requirements. So once you Heretic, you have an x amount of time to stick y affliction(s) to Infidel, and then x amount of time to stick z affliction(s) to Inquisition. Would allow people to continue fighting rather than being forced to run, and would make the combat more interesting.