With the nice buffs that the crypt has, they don't need a will/endurance replenishment.

If they want that they can come2celest.

I personally don't see that as nice. Especially since that can be gained with a karma blessing. Now if the blessing stacked with the crypt (which is doubtful) giving a total of like 30% or at the very least 25% it could be seen as semi decent.

But right now, all a Font user needs to do is to use their font, and get a chaos blessing and they now have the one thing that can be seen as useful PvP wise from the crypt added to their own.

Don't get me wrong though, You and I had this discussion before, except last time I was playing you and you were playing me. You said that the font was useless for you, while I pointed out having a seperate balance to do some pretty neat things was useful for PvP.

I personally don't care, I can moonbeam in 3 seconds (although I don't know why my ring isn't working with it.... and for that matter even teleporting nexus doesn't seem to change with my quickening ring anymore... maybe its buggy.. I will have to check)

But we all know that combat has been watered down to group combat now, there is rarely any good 1 on 1, most people scream for help and a zerg comes. That being the case, things like vapours will play an important role in group combat. Unless conciousness and other skills are going to protect against vapours I don't think there is much downplaying you can do to make it seem like knocking people unconcious is not going to be a very big deal. Especially when Celest learns to control it better... aka not have everyone in the zerg doing it, but spacing it out for maximum potential.

As for now, I think Mags will have to make sure to raid 1 time a month prior to any real raiding to try and get most the defenders to expend their vapour power so they can't use it in a later raid.

Font is nice now PvP wise, Crypt is nice now utility wise, Communes still end up on the shorter stick compared to cities but still possibly better than before (although I am not positive and would have to ask the commune members what they thought). I only use my construct to be able to get to astral and because I was told to be a moonchilde by my superiors. The cha won't help me at all really but its no real big deal.

Crypt does stack with Chaos.

There's a simple solution to this problem, given the change: just let someone be able to embrace undeath for 10 power regardless of whether they are already a lich or not, and let it recharge endurance and willpower. Given that lichdom was used by a number of people to regenerate end/will before, it would seem like a nerf on top of the orginal lich nerf to not include something for this.

In my own opinion, the ability to "refresh" your endurance and/or willpower through lich is a loophole. You are essentially dying just to get back that which you drained, and now you're only complaining because you actually lose some amount of experience (which should have always been the case). It's not a nerf. It's a fix.

Why does celest have the only construct power that

1. Decays
2. Can be stolen
3. Can be used up

In fact as the phial only has 10 sips, and you can only sip once per IG month, and it decays after 10 months, you have a strong incentive to sip it every month otherwise you "lose" some of its power.

It seems like the phial should be non-decay and should just go poof when all 10 sips are used. Then you have a trade off to make, right now there is no trade off, you should sip every day.

The issue of having a phial stolen is also surprising. No one else can have their constructs abilities removed in that manner. Is this some kind of balance for litch being "taken" on death? From a pure RP point of view I am torn, as this would allow a phial to be used in cool rituals which would be cool for mag. On the other hand it would encourage stealing from new players who could not defend their phial, and it would be a big RP deal to see the phials abused.

This all comes down to why the affect was not kept as an aura? Why the need to have a physical item which is so different than every other construct?

Well not having trueheal if I'm hit with 4 afflictions or more and they are trying to get a lock I've used Pray Elohora balance (since it is quick) to stack with allheale + herb balance to outpace the rate at which I get afflictions. Instead of using princess Tarot and losing all my defenses.

Good! I like the feature and I don't want to see it be taken out.

You have a longer lasting Egg. Welcome to Glom's problem.

The issue of the vial being stolen is interesting and I think it serves as a sort of "negative" check to the power of Vapors. Vapors, even in a limited capacity, is useful for every guild in Celest at every level from novice to demigod in PvP. Also if I recall correctly Vapors will stack with another Vapors ... increasing time to potentially 20 seconds (need to confirm with live test). Also this is a first approximation analysis that doesn't take into account the other limitations on the ability.

With regards to being able to be stolen, it is a negative but how viable of a negative?

I order to take the phial from you I could...

Afflict Generosity. But the counter to this is to have several things in your inventory and there is no guarantee you give the phial to me.

Pooka/Dreamweave Control/Whatever Psionic Mages have to Possess. I believe you can use this for targeted theft to remove the phial from you but there is selfishness to stop that. Not everyone will have selfishness however.

Still, I think you can use the Vapors ability at the beginning of combat BEFORE there is a chance to steal it. You will not benefit from the passive abilities, but the opponent has bothered to spend equilibrium to take it, which is an advantage in and of itsself.

Also non-Celest people cannot use the phials powers.

I like this. Less maintenance.

Being able to join a coven doesn't devalue MD RP unless for some reason your entire identity is built upon that.

SW has plenty of power, while of course I'd prefer it be lowered, I'm not too bothered.

The "grass is greener" syndrome just absolutely flows from many posts in this thread, my own included, so I'm sure everyone's taking it with a grain of salt.

I'd also like to ask the Divine to review the cost for having to reincarnate for Ascendants given the fact that when we die, we lose something now. In the past, not losing xp is what we viewed as fair tradeoff for waiting 15 minutes or spending 500k essence to rez, and with the former gone, something in the latter needs to loosen up a bit.

Although with this, if your vial was stolen and it was non decay you wouldnt be able to ever get a new vial. Are you sure this is what you wanted?

That's great, and basically what I said too. Now, can we get willpower/endurance refresh skill like Celest's construct has?

I think they should automatically crumble if someone else touches them. That way if someone does lose theirs, they can get another when they have the time and power.

What I'm worried about is someone going out and actively stealing phials and then sticking them in stockrooms so they never decay. But I am sure the Admin already addressed this and make them decay in stockrooms.

But, yeah, the physical phials are really awesome, but they are going to encourage people to steal them just so they can't be used against them.

The topic of stolen phials was preemptively addressed when it was coded - if you lose your phial for whatever reason, you can go and, as though you were getting one for the first time, TOUCH the ANGELFONT and you'll be given your old one with full sips.

After thought: Yes, it costs the same amount of power/mana/what have you as if it was a new one.

Well in my "perfect" world the font would give an aura and then you could use up a charge from the aura, use up 10 charges and the aura goes poof.

While I understand the difficulty involved in stealing something, I think this is easier than you think to do against new players. I do not think "can be stolen" should ever be used as a balancing idea. I am slightly torn just because I do think giving the ability to the other side to use a phial in a ritual is cool from an RP perspective. I just think the mechanics of having a physical item and all the issues (including a decay timer) that go with it are not worth it.

Making the phial non-decay and resetting seems like a good compromise if it MUST be an item. I think an aura is more in keeping with the flavor of the other constructs though.

I think having a physical thing from the construct is pretty cool. Celestines often use rituals with a vial of holy water -- and this can help us make these ritual more... realistic, I guess. Instead of just dreaming about vials of holy water.

While non-decay would be awesome, resetting might be a bit much. If it gets stolen, as eventru just confirmed, you can go get another one.

You have two organizational constructs, one of which is a lasting aura.

With regards to the Celest construct changes, why the pie did we get a phial? It really breaks my heart. As someone mentioned before, Celest is now the only org with a -primary- (not guild-based, like the Black Nest) construct
I want my aura back if for no other reason than because the aura looks cool. Also, from the RP sense, it makes more sense that auras can meld/merge/link/whatever than a.... phial.... channeling power from the honour aura? Right. I'm sad that it decays. I'm sad that I can't pray to my favorite supernal anymore. True, the powers are neat, but the mental imagery is just totally lost on me and makes my character feel like a total tool (which actually is my biggest gripe aside from the decay. I mean, seriously. Wtf). I'll also reiterate that phials can be stolen, however unlikely that is, but everyone else gets permanent effects.


Angelfont: (Built)
TOUCH - Gives the user a phial of celestial holy water for 10 power.
SPRINKLE PHIAL - Surrounds user with sparks of holy power, shielding the user.
Same as Pray to Shakiniel, I'm down with that.
RUB PHIAL - Cures the user of a random affliction.
Same as Pray to Elohora, I'm down with that.
SIP PHIAL - Grants the user the power of Celestia for sixty seconds, able to give several afflictions to enemies upon inflicting damage. Only usable once per day.
Sounds shiny. I'm gonna have to play with this before I can comment though, so I'm gonna reserve judgement, but I thought the idea was to move away from combat-centric powers. This one is -only- useful in PvP.
BATHE FONT - Must be done at the Font itself, usable once per month. Fully heals hunger, tiredness, endurance, and willpower.
Uhhh.... okay... whatever. Great for under lvl 80 people and dreamweavers. I personally don't care.
No power cost to chant benediction to those with the phial.
Same as before, yay.
Power cost to teleport and tesseract while carrying a phial is halved.
Umm...... O....kay? I don't get it, but whatever.
Those with the phial will count as Sacraments users for purposes of Sacraments Honour regeneration.
Same as before, yay.

So the changes look like: remove the h/m/e prayers and whatever the aura proper did, reduce magical transport costs, let us refresh end/wp once a month, and give us the sip phial ability. I kinda miss the other two prayers. Even if nobody else ever used them, they were nice flavor and I don't think they needed to be removed. Also, I thought that the point was to remove importance in combat. None of the other constructs seem to have abilities that so blatantly and obviously have -only- a pvp use as the phial. Not to mitigate what the committee's been working on, because I think that the other three constructs reaaaally needed some changes, but I don't think that the Celest Font needed the tweaks it was given, logic being that the old font didn't have pvp-centric powers. This one does. Okay, so the Shakiniel and Elohora prayers were (and the new equivalents still are) -useful-, but I really don't think that they made that big of a difference.

With regards to Malarious's waay earlier comments, why exactly do you have a problem with free benediction? It's not comparable to you getting dmp from your construct in any way shape or form because it's part of the original sacraments. The construct just provides a little bit of power savings. Whee? I can see where the honour aura might make you a bit twitchy, since it gives +1 regen to all celestians in the room now, but its still capped at a max of +3. When we're on the defensive, most people are getting that natively with the other constructs and/or merian/racial regens or whatever. Further, that's assuming you even -have- three people with honour aura, and the only people who have that are Celestines and most Paladins. Phial afflicting I could live without. It's once every 6 seconds, yay? That means it can proc 10 times, assuming you're attacking at some divisor of 6 seconds, which is rarely the case. I'd put it more at somewhere around 6 or 7 from what I've seen in combat.

A very important problem revolving around the new xp loss on Liching was just brought to my attention by one of the Nihilists. The problem is... the damn xp loss on Demon Lord pacts sealed in blood. I was always REALLY against using reflections to avoid this to begin with but I may start advocating this because the losses will get ridiculous.

In the past novices would just suffer the xp loss on their first pacts because they couldn't Lich yet, but at higher levels Lichdom and then, the Crypt, nullified that problem. But now we are the only ones, to my knowledge, that have to pay in xp to pact/re-pact. Just think of the insane losses should Demon Lords fall, and again we are the only ones paying in xp if our cosmic lords die.

Just to play devil's advocate here (I don't actually support this view): You guys get two +exp hours per day, three if you're lowmagic. That should be a compensating factor.

Shooting down my own advocate's remarks: True, but only nihilists have to deal with the xp loss. The rest of the magnagoran guilds don't.