Belloc2008-04-09 15:42:18
Perhaps I missed it in the previous post, but how does the pureblade/axelord play into this? With your proposition of us only being able to have one rune, it would appear to me that blademaster/bonecrusher have an unfair advantage of having two weapons at one time boosted by, say, +10 to all, while the pureblade/axelord has one weapon boosted by +10. Or would these artifacts hold double effect for the pureblade/axelord?
Xenthos2008-04-09 15:45:04
QUOTE(Zarquan @ Apr 9 2008, 10:23 AM) 500759
If a change like this was put into place, I really just wouldn't want to lose credits in the transition. When I remove the runes from my weapons, I lose the runes and gain the 2/3 trade-in value. I already lost 600 credits moving the stat runes from one pair of weapons to another.
I don't mind the cost of the bleeding artifact as it is currently, but it could stand to do a little more than it does. If the cost is lowered, I'd expect to be reimbursed for that, too.
Unfortunately, the issues this proposal would raise just seem like more than any admin would really want to deal with practically.
I don't mind the cost of the bleeding artifact as it is currently, but it could stand to do a little more than it does. If the cost is lowered, I'd expect to be reimbursed for that, too.
Unfortunately, the issues this proposal would raise just seem like more than any admin would really want to deal with practically.
Luckily, this is exactly what this proposal would be addressing. You would never, ever have to lose credits ever again moving runes around-- because you don't need to move them around. I still think that, overall, the proposal does address most of these concerns. Sure, there may be a slight loss on a specific rune, but you gain that effect on *all* of your weapons (damage, precision, speed), which means you would, personally, take a 300-credit hit and gain 3600 credits worth of value against the current system (4 more +15 stat runes). Obviously, someone who has runed all their weapon sets with the maximum doesn't get quite the same benefit, but... it's something that really needs to be done, IMO.
Xenthos2008-04-09 16:26:47
Amended Proposal:
Warrior offensive artifacts should function like other offensive artifacts (the +% damage magical runes, etc). That is, they should attach to jewellery and provide their effect to your attacks (just as the +% magic damage rune does, for example).
1) This effect will be applied to all weapons that you are wielding, as long as they are at 463 or below total weapon stats.
2) These effects should NOT be stackable with a second rune of the same type.
3) All currently attached Stat/Wounding Runes should be detached from the weapons that they are currently attached to and placed in their owners inventory (with some warning ahead of time, for those weapons that are close to decay).
Proposal:
* These numbers are just my own personal view on their worth, not taking into account the current existence of artifacts and tradein values. They are subject to change/debate-- do not take them as set in stone. Still, if you look at their value and the numbers at the end of the proposal, it seems that these numbers are not too far off the mark when compared to the runes for other classes.
Stat Runes:
- Puissant Knight: +5/+5/+5, cost: 300 credits.
- Cosmic Knight: +10/+10/+10, cost: 600 credits.
- Vernal Knight: +15/+15/+15, cost: 900 credits.
* 2h weapons would still have the same total modification to these numbers as they currently do. The +10/+10/+10 rune would give a 2h weapon +20/+22/+10, for instance.
Wounding Runes:
- Puissant Champion: +5% wounding, 300 credits.
- Cosmic Champion: +10% wounding, 600 credits.
- Vernal Champion: +15% wounding, 900 credits.
Bleeding Runes:
* Split these into two categories of runes.
* One category may only be attached to 1h weapons and cost 75 credits each. Two will need to be purchased for a full set, totaling 150 cr.
* The second category may only be attached to 2h weapons and cost 150 credits. It will have twice the effect of the 1h runes.
This is to mimic the gripping rune for the other classes-- a 150-credit rune which turns the class's offensive weapon (in the case of dual wielders, this actually is weapons) into an artifact.
Elemental Runes:
* Do not change these at all. One per 1h weapon, 2 per 2h weapon, 350 credits apiece, and so on.
Comparisons/Discussion
Other classes: +20% magic rune (1600), gripping rune (150), shield rune (350): 2100 total. (Shield rune isn't necessarily offensive, but since there's just one weapon for most of these classes and having a shield rune frees up the other hand for tomes/etc, I'm counting it)
Warriors: Stat rune (900), wounding rune (900), bleeding (150 for a weapon set), elemental (700 for a weapon set): 2650.
Damage weapon set would be 850 (on top of the 1800 base).
Speed weapon set would be 150.
Precision weapon set would be 150. (Not as likely to buy elemental runes for weapons with lower damage, though it IS a possibility)
Thus, total for the *full* set of runes for the full range of Warrior offense: 2950 credits, versus the 2100 of a Magic user.
It's still higher, but it actually gives us a reasonable baseline.
Warrior offensive artifacts should function like other offensive artifacts (the +% damage magical runes, etc). That is, they should attach to jewellery and provide their effect to your attacks (just as the +% magic damage rune does, for example).
1) This effect will be applied to all weapons that you are wielding, as long as they are at 463 or below total weapon stats.
2) These effects should NOT be stackable with a second rune of the same type.
3) All currently attached Stat/Wounding Runes should be detached from the weapons that they are currently attached to and placed in their owners inventory (with some warning ahead of time, for those weapons that are close to decay).
Proposal:
* These numbers are just my own personal view on their worth, not taking into account the current existence of artifacts and tradein values. They are subject to change/debate-- do not take them as set in stone. Still, if you look at their value and the numbers at the end of the proposal, it seems that these numbers are not too far off the mark when compared to the runes for other classes.
Stat Runes:
- Puissant Knight: +5/+5/+5, cost: 300 credits.
- Cosmic Knight: +10/+10/+10, cost: 600 credits.
- Vernal Knight: +15/+15/+15, cost: 900 credits.
* 2h weapons would still have the same total modification to these numbers as they currently do. The +10/+10/+10 rune would give a 2h weapon +20/+22/+10, for instance.
Wounding Runes:
- Puissant Champion: +5% wounding, 300 credits.
- Cosmic Champion: +10% wounding, 600 credits.
- Vernal Champion: +15% wounding, 900 credits.
Bleeding Runes:
* Split these into two categories of runes.
* One category may only be attached to 1h weapons and cost 75 credits each. Two will need to be purchased for a full set, totaling 150 cr.
* The second category may only be attached to 2h weapons and cost 150 credits. It will have twice the effect of the 1h runes.
This is to mimic the gripping rune for the other classes-- a 150-credit rune which turns the class's offensive weapon (in the case of dual wielders, this actually is weapons) into an artifact.
Elemental Runes:
* Do not change these at all. One per 1h weapon, 2 per 2h weapon, 350 credits apiece, and so on.
Comparisons/Discussion
Other classes: +20% magic rune (1600), gripping rune (150), shield rune (350): 2100 total. (Shield rune isn't necessarily offensive, but since there's just one weapon for most of these classes and having a shield rune frees up the other hand for tomes/etc, I'm counting it)
Warriors: Stat rune (900), wounding rune (900), bleeding (150 for a weapon set), elemental (700 for a weapon set): 2650.
Damage weapon set would be 850 (on top of the 1800 base).
Speed weapon set would be 150.
Precision weapon set would be 150. (Not as likely to buy elemental runes for weapons with lower damage, though it IS a possibility)
Thus, total for the *full* set of runes for the full range of Warrior offense: 2950 credits, versus the 2100 of a Magic user.
It's still higher, but it actually gives us a reasonable baseline.
Unknown2008-04-09 16:43:19
I like the newest proposal, except that I still think bleeding runes are fine the way they are now (though lowering the cost or boosting the bleeding would be nice, maybe).
You lost me at the end when you said Damage = 850, Speed = 150, and Precision = 150. Could you clarify what this means?
(If these would be the prices under the new system, I'd be getting some sort of refund or the runes would all be detached and placed in our inventories or something like that I assume...)
You lost me at the end when you said Damage = 850, Speed = 150, and Precision = 150. Could you clarify what this means?
(If these would be the prices under the new system, I'd be getting some sort of refund or the runes would all be detached and placed in our inventories or something like that I assume...)
Xenthos2008-04-09 16:46:44
QUOTE(Zarquan @ Apr 9 2008, 12:43 PM) 500777
I like the newest proposal, except that I still think bleeding runes are fine the way they are now (though lowering the cost or boosting the bleeding would be nice, maybe).
You lost me at the end when you said Damage = 850, Speed = 150, and Precision = 150. Could you clarify what this means?
(If these would be the prices under the new system, I'd be getting some sort of refund or the runes would all be detached and placed in our inventories or something like that I assume...)
You lost me at the end when you said Damage = 850, Speed = 150, and Precision = 150. Could you clarify what this means?
(If these would be the prices under the new system, I'd be getting some sort of refund or the runes would all be detached and placed in our inventories or something like that I assume...)
I mean that you'd be paying 1800 credits base for the wounding and stat runes. That's a flat cost, no matter what else, you'd be paying it.
Then, on top of that, you'd be runing your weapons. Your damage weapons, you'd stick the bleeding & elemental runes on. 2 elementals, 700. Bleeding runes, 150. 850 total.
Speed weapons: Just bleeding (to make them non-decay/resetting). 150 total.
Precision weapons: Just bleeding (to make them non-decay/resetting). 150 total.
1800 + 850 + 150 + 150 == 2950.
Keep in mind that the main point of the bleeding runes, under the new system, is to make them an artifact. They still have some minor effect (so you'd still want them on your damage weapons), but the main point is the artifact-ness (like the gripping rune for athames/etc, though it can be very nice on its own, its main purpose is to make a non-artifact an artifact).
(And yes, the point is that the runes would all be detached and put in the inventory. I should put that in the proposal-- sorry, it's definitely been in my head as "how it would work" but never made it to paper for some reason.)
Unknown2008-04-09 16:54:48
Okay, so I'd lose credits for trading in the "extra" runes then. That's the only reason really to raise the cost, to help offset the losses.
It's cheaper to have the weapons customized to make them into artifacts, and from what I understand they don't have to already be non-decay/reset to get the customization done, but I could be wrong.
Bleeding runes going from 200 down to 75 is a noticeable reduction.
It's cheaper to have the weapons customized to make them into artifacts, and from what I understand they don't have to already be non-decay/reset to get the customization done, but I could be wrong.
Bleeding runes going from 200 down to 75 is a noticeable reduction.
Xenthos2008-04-09 16:58:52
QUOTE(Zarquan @ Apr 9 2008, 12:54 PM) 500781
Okay, so I'd lose credits for trading in the "extra" runes then. That's the only reason really to raise the cost, to help offset the losses.
It's cheaper to have the weapons customized to make them into artifacts, and from what I understand they don't have to already be non-decay/reset to get the customization done, but I could be wrong.
Bleeding runes going from 200 down to 75 is a noticeable reduction.
It's cheaper to have the weapons customized to make them into artifacts, and from what I understand they don't have to already be non-decay/reset to get the customization done, but I could be wrong.
Bleeding runes going from 200 down to 75 is a noticeable reduction.
Right, as I noted in the proposal, the costs I have there are what I think a fair price would be for this new system without taking into account current prices / tradein values.
You also cannot use customization on forged goods to make them artifacts. "Forged items may never be made non-decay or reset. (Use weapon runes for these)." Customization only changes the appearance, it doesn't add the artifact flags. And yeah, it is a significant reduction-- but that's the only one that's a reduction at all (and is still, in the grand scheme of this proposal, a very minor amount). Whatever happens, we need SOME rune that costs 150cr for 2h and 75cr apiece for 1h. The bleeding rune makes the most sense since its current effect is so minor, and is easier than creating a new one.
Daganev2008-04-09 17:24:57
QUOTE(Belloc @ Apr 9 2008, 08:42 AM) 500768
Perhaps I missed it in the previous post, but how does the pureblade/axelord play into this? With your proposition of us only being able to have one rune, it would appear to me that blademaster/bonecrusher have an unfair advantage of having two weapons at one time boosted by, say, +10 to all, while the pureblade/axelord has one weapon boosted by +10. Or would these artifacts hold double effect for the pureblade/axelord?
It would work the same way nightaura/drawdown works.
Xenthos2008-04-09 17:28:41
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 9 2008, 01:24 PM) 500791
It would work the same way nightaura/drawdown works.
Ah, I missed Belloc's post. Thanks for pointing it out!
It would work exactly how the runes do now, Belloc. The +10/+10/+10 rune would add +10 to both 1h weapons, or +20/+22/+10 to 2h weapons. Double damage, double precision + precision bonus, and same speed increase.
I've added it to the proposal for clarification's sake.
Belloc2008-04-09 17:31:39
Edit: If they made this change I'd drop the cash for this then.
Xenthos2008-04-09 17:39:10
QUOTE(Belloc @ Apr 9 2008, 01:31 PM) 500797
Edit: If they made this change I'd drop the cash for this then.
I think quite a few people would, actually-- which is why it'd actually be possible to start balancing the class as a whole instead of having to deal with runed/unruned Warriors and the differences between them. The credit hurdle is just too large at the moment.