Note: A thread in which I attempt to document my line of thinking regarding some basic bard combat and in the end asks for advice.. Excuse its length

A very basic strategy a bard might pursue might go something along these lines.

At its core, this accounts for a large majority of my wins.. and actually, this might be "the" attack pattern each aspiring music nenja should know.

However, sooner or later, you go meet someone with large health and/or just someone who cures well. So you start inserting something called octave/maelstrom in there..



A fight with someone like rika/geb/vathael/thoros will probably go along these lines. However, these people are rare in that, they will fight inside octave and maeltrom. The huge majority of people I've encountered either
1. Run away when they see me drop maestrom and generally refuse to fight inside it
2. Gust/Beckon/throw me out of the room

I managed to put icewalls once to prevent gusting.. but it took so long to seal all the rooms, I dont think its really viable against something that deals hard damage.. i.e. monks

Now, faced with a situation in which the most powerful of my abilities are rendered useless.. I reverted back to pattern I with the idea of getting karmic blessings of war and intelligence, and maybe mystic might later on.. and just whoring tranfix so i can minorsecond someone to death..

Problem is -- Fascination is a little overrated.. Against things such as faelings, spider sphere, cacophony spider song.. etc.. the hindering is too little for so large a power expenditure.. Heck, telepaths laugh at my face when they get transfixed.. it dont work against psions.. hack ptew!

Which would have been alright I guess, I can live with basically a 2p web.. but whats worse is you cant do it anytime you want to. It sometimes requires an initial flare.. and that turns it into a 2-4sec, 2-4power web..

So what do we do now?
1. To transfix, the worst case is 4p and 4sec to pull it off.
2. Some people get out of it just a sec or two after you regain equi. No time to get a free attack sometimes really.
We can say it barely supports minorsecond.
3. Since its 2-4p wouldnt it be great if we somehow have a hindering skill that might be more reliable and much faster? You can do it everytime you feel like it.. on top of that in exchange for not costing at worse 4p, power is fixed at 3p?

Would it be great if I have something like that?

hmm.. err.. ponder.. think.. aha! what is this:

princessfarewell does: Stun(hindering), Blackout(4.5sec, semi-hindering), aeon(if lucky, lots of hindering with recessional).. for just a measly 3p!

People would say pricessfarewell and queenslament are lamentable.. but as we can see, I think its the perfect replacement for transfix.. and also, since octave and maelstrom is not used, might as well divert power to princessfarewell eh..

So now, the basic attack pattern will go like this


although the initial intent is just to replace transfix.. this pattern makes it possible to set something like sleep(mesmerize) + aeon(princessfarewell) + Anorexia(recessional)..

I found it! The ultimate bard technique! Hyukyuk, Gahahahaha!!!

errrp..

Anyway:

Its possible there are very big holes in this logic. So, now ive posted it here, I'm sure someone will point out what exactly is wrong with this picture..

So whacha waiting for? A credit sale? Criticize.. Go!

I don't see a problem with flare/transfix. Not only does flare help your colourburst/maelstrom/hypnoticpattern and all to become more powerful, but transfix + webbing can keep someone from attacking longer than maze once you've followed it up one after another a few times and expended an equal amount of power I would wager.

Furthermore, speaking about transfix writhe speed not being good based on small size is a bad idea for two reasons.
1: It's coming from someone who can stun quite regularly and you're going to have an advantage one way or the other.
2: I haven't tested it, but size should not be affecting transfix at all.

Princessfarewell, and most any other bard instakill, usually only works in odd situations like:

A. Punching babies in faethorn. <3
B. Someone who can't handle Spiritsinger sleep. (Or don't have metawake. Same deal.)
C. Having an extra person to help hinder (they can usually get out of almost anything you lay on them before starting it).
D. Using it in the middle of mass group combat to pick people off who miss warnings in spam.

I've seen it pulled off before as a tarot Cantor, before the era when everyone had their OP minorseconds/justice tarots/cosmicfire and such, but they had aeon. You could skip around and stall until they get parasite of the dreaming from rainbowpattern, but I'm not sure if that's even in the aff list still since Dreamweavers got it back.

Princess farewell is the aeon + blackout + stun 3p song. You're thinking of Requiem, I think it's called.

Nezha, are you taking into account that it may take several patterns if they can keep up with the faeleaf eating? I'd move Flare to the front and then add in the others just to make sure they stick. Also, blanknoting is required. If the enemy isn't using earwort... that's just stupid (then again, it's sort of a gamble depending on what the bard does first- could waste valuable eq on blanknoting a non-deaf person).

There's a way to cancel Octave, but I haven't seen anyone use it yet except a certain monk.

Princessfarewell isn't that good for 3p. It's a 3sec stun and 6sec (roughly) blackout for size 4 faelings, shorter stun for larger races. Sure, if you have the excess power, it's fine to use.

Don't forget Perfectfifth. A lot of people will move to cure or redef, even top fighters, if it starts to look nasty.

What about Acrobatics? I find some of the attacks useful at times. I like to use backflip and jumpkick in group fighting, especially if I know they'll start targetting me immediately. A little stun, prone, and movement... Too bad it doesn't cause wounding, damage, or broken limbs (I tried backflipping myself and it caused no damage or broken limbs, just a stun). It would be more useful if the stun lasted longer or there was something to hinder the enemy from following. The stun is about 1.5sec on size 4 faelings... sad.

Illusions are great! Improved ones are easy to time around. Knock them off herb/elixir/somesuch balance right before attacking. Hmm. That gives me an idea. I think I'll try my programmed ones with jumpkicking.

Bard combat is ridiculously hard when compared to other classes. How many other classes have to time their attacks so precisely that a second or three means starting all over again? While your tactics may work for a mugwump, they may not for a slower eq race.

I'd like to see bards live up to their "supporting" role that they were given when released. Room-wide Music abilities (majorthird, minorsecond, any non-power ability) for a decent power cost, anyone? PLAY MAJORTHIRD ALL.

Does blankchord strip the captivity of all enemies? I've never seen it stripped by blankchord. Does blankchord also remove the shields of all enemies in the room? It should, if it doesn't.

Ohgod zacc you're a funny man.



Um, guardians?

id say practically every class....x) bards seem to have it easier then most X)

@Nezha: I wonder why you need to Flare/Flare first before sticking transfix since I believe you're a mugwump and therefore the only race who could actually stick transfix right off before people get sixthsense back if you just do Fascinate/Fascinate first. The initial one would strip sixthsense for free and if they don't have sixth sense up, then you just saved yourself some time and power. Also, to help propagate the writhing aspect, since you are indeed a mugwump, you could stick web after transfixing to buy yourself a bit more time as well to build your other Glamours and even stick perfectfifth. Also, seeing as how you're a Cantor, unless I'm mistaken, JustChorale's afflicting capabilities cycles through each of the afflictions twice or thrice on a ten second tic before moving on to the next type of affliction, so if you time it so that you stick the aeon through PrincessFarewell whenever Japhiel/Elohora comes around, you'd stand a better chance of sticking aeon then, I think. Now, add onto that LightCantata and further transfixing/webbing, I'd say you'd be doing well.

@Zacc: I agree that there's a problem in which non-mugwump bards would regain equilibrium too slowly to stick in the second Flare before the opponent regains the sixthsense defense, and so I've been toying with the idea of lengthening the time in which it takes folk to regain sixthsense back so that other types of bards would indeed have the chance to Flare/Flare to stick it without trying to hope that lag slows the person from eating faeleaf before you get equilibrium back. However, that proposition will need to take into account mugwump bards who'd surely benefit all the more from such a delay, so that would pose some problems. Also, a number of classes also need to take into account the timeframe which they are presented with to pull off their kill condition, so I don't think it's right to believe that the bards are somehow solely targetted about this.

Obviously, the problem is with mugwump. Nerf plz.

Bards are pretty mediocre, really.
They can do a lot of damage, but that's about it.
They're a jack-of-all-trades class that are ultimately too dilute to be effective.
Not to mention boring.

Bard affliction is pretty random (read: ColourBurst). Of course, we have pfifth, octave, etc., but otherwise people die to bards due to maestro instrument damage.

And before maestro-ing, MinorSecond damage is pretty average.

EDIT:


I concur.

whats the problem with mugwump? that we are fast? we are built that way.. its like saying orlach warriors hits too hard.. and demigods who have over 8000 health are "too" tanky..

I know, lets make mugwump slower.. but boost their health.. then remove the electric and fire weakness, and add cutting/blunt resistance... oh heck, lets just make everyone aslaran and get it over with.. go figure..

The next time you tank three illithoids, three kephera, or three of anything.. ask yourself if you can do that if your a mugwump.. if the answer is "no", then thank your lucky stars your not one..



This is one of the things i was gonna investigate.. good thing it was cleared up right now saving me some trouble.. thank you..

However no matter how you slice it, at *worst* we would need two attacks to stick fascinate.. I was looking for something in which I was sure I can hinder right *now* at any moment.. a capability like that will be a life-saver in certain situations really.. Like if youre in the "oh shite im gonna die" zone and need to buy time right *now* and not a few seconds later..

although a free flare from fascinate will indeed be good as it will save me 2sec.. hrmmm..

Zacc, no matter what class one is in.. one of the things that one should learn is timing attacks. People who never learn that and just go on blindly hacking the opponent like its a tree will never get far..



Compare this to a 2p tranfix in which you get a glorified web.. for the extra 1p.. I think its a better alternative..

Most of this thread... lol.

First of all, Princessfarwell? comon... you have to do it twice to get aeon which is 6 power.. not to mention they will probably get quicksilver up before you get balance to do it again. Aeon is ridiculously easy to cure, if you have good aeon curing that is. Backout in itself isn't hindering.. lolsipallheale.

Secondly, the reason we use flare is becuse during the fight we will obviously need to transfix again, if they don't have afterimage we have to strip faeleaf again wasting a turn.

I have pulled Dirge off many times on people who knew what they were doing, so it's doable, it's just very hard.

I don't colourburst at all really anymore since everyone has like instant colourbust curing now and they laugh at me. Makes me a sad panda

The problem isn't with Mugwumps, it's that all you Non-Mugwump bards need to become Mugwumps and be quiet.

Point proven. Can we nerf them now, please?

I'm all for a mugwump change if everything else to accomodate the non-mugwump races too. I've tried before, as a human, to stick transfix. Kinda came down to me hoping people lag before they can eat faeleaf again because otherwise, I'm just too slow.

Mugwump anything but monk/warriors is the same argument as artied warriors.

That is not exactly true. I can easily deal with artied warriors. I find mugwump bards to be quite a bit more annoying to deal with, and that is only if they spam defensive equilibrium using abilities. I can demonstrate for you too, if you hit me up sometime for a spar where I use unartied weapons.

Err, you're Geb and are therefore an exception and not a rule.

Mugwump magic classes are seen as too fast and too strong, making pretty much other races generally substandard. The classes can't be upgraded without making mugwumps even more strong/OP than they already are.

Artied warriors are seen as too strong, making non-artied warriors generally substandard. Warriors can't be upgraded without making artied warriors even more strong/OP than they already are.

Warriors only need minor upgrades, and some of those can be something as small as fixing some of the accuracy problems. Magic using classes are pretty much fine as they are, with the problems some of them have being easily fixed with minor adjustments. Bards are definitely not hurting; it is just that people were use to them requiring little effort to defeat people. Just like warriors are not really hurting against the masses, it is just some desire them to be easier to play.

I think if more people worked on actually improving their defensive skills (healing and hindering), they would find it would allow them more time to then concentrate on effectively using their offensive abilities. Instead what I seem to notice is that people desire their offensive abilities to be increased in an effort to cover the weaknesses of their poor defensive skills.

Timing attacks: yes, the majority of classes do it. However, there is a difference in 1-2sec timing and 3-4sec timing. It's a world of difference depending on what's being done. Having to time their balances (herb, writhe, etc), song ticking (which is fairly easy for most of them, even the unseen ones)... everything, is a little difficult to keep up with unless filtering combat spam (spammiest combat I've ever encountered of all Muds), very very fast reader, or automated attacking. That's my biggest problem, I can't keep up with the timing or spam, and creating a script for that is just... stressing. Race, balances, possible increases/decreases, etc etc etc. It's like creating a whole new system for offense to accompany the one for defense/curing. Not fun.

Mugwumps- agreed. They're our equivalent of faeling monks, I guess (the only difference is that not every bard wants to become a mugwump ).

Would be nice to control the colours in glamours (an option to have set colours or random). Unpredictable afflictions suck hardcore.

I still don't see how bards manage to kill anything unless the target has less than 5k health. We don't have very many afflictions that lead to actual death (unless you count the 1 in 1000000 chance that stupidity fails enough times or recessional kicks in every time they sip, or the person doesn't cure glamours very well). I do about 1.3k a minorsecond (with fully powered CrusaderCanto and Celestode) to myself, and I can't sip 1k+ by the time someone attacks again. However, those with high health recover more from sips. I suppose the damage from glamours is needed too, but that's random and not something that can be relied on. Octave? Gust the bard away with a common enchantment. Perfectfifth? Eat earwort and spam moving (almost certain escape). Passive song afflictions as a Cantor aren't too hindering since the good ones can't be controlled. Blindness and kneeling? Woot. I'd still like a song that drains power (1-2p per tick maybe). I find it ironic that once bards got hit with the nerf stick their top combatants (on par with top tier) stopped exisiting. Sadness. It says something...