This is a huge reason why they really don't need any buffing offensively in 1 on 1 combat I would say. It is extremely frustrating to work towards killing them if all they want to do is whore reflections with all the dodging and other garbage that can become extremely difficult to get through. Against Nezha I even realized that he can shield while proned due to Celest's construct. It really does all add up eventually and I had to either cleave or assault on nearly every attack with a nearly 250 speed weapon. It would be even more tedious as a one-handed spec I'm sure.

*That makes you a demigod warrior on that first part.
*The second part I agree with, I believe some people have heartstopped because of bards spamming celestprayer/reflections



Comments are in the quote.



I agree with the second paragraph for the most part, in 1 on 1 using more defensive tactics will keep things from being so bad.. and probably destroy a bit of the offense you had worked up to.

As for what I bolded. Warriors need to be brought down a notch for Demigodness, as I have said, Demigods are OP, the +3 str racially already means they can take whatever race they want or else make their current one alot stronger (axelords can do noticable damage at high str, though thankfully tend to need damgae mod runes). Make a demigod warrior killable by most other classes without having to have fullplate then we can 'fix' them. As I imagine anyone in robes could explain you dont need to be stronger until you can be more balanced.

To which I suggest either changing how strength scales, changing wounding cap, or increasing armour stats on robes. Naturally warrior champ helms still need to be toned down on their own.



1) Try to be a guardian Zacc, I want you to see what its like to have to focus on using something other than damag and glamours. Then when you come back and complain that curing will always be your worst enemy as anyone using aeon as well you will see most guilds have issues with curing more than anything. My enemies dont need be smart, just need be able to leave curing to its work (if it handles it right) yours tend to leave.

2) Focus up bards maybe? I find harbingers sexy, they have a clear goal and with manabarbs would probably rip through a fair few people or else drain their mana out entirely. Instead of being the support + soloist + hinderer + damager maybe they should just be support with hinder? Or make their damage better but downgrade glamours and passives?

Well anyway I imagine someone has something to yell about as I might hvae offended someone or they will say I am entirely wrong for X Y or Z. I calls em likes I sees em and until you have tried more than one side of the fence AND seen it from the other side you will find things are worse than they are. As a demigod I would be alot scarier as a warrior just because of armour and stats. Those who havent had to fight Demigod Warriors 1 on 1 or heck even 3 on 4 dont know where I am coming from. Groups are hard yes, but it doesnt add up like warriors/monks do, you can sip or you can apply, for groups of mana drains you just need to sip.

So go for it, and hopefully someone got some food for thought

EDIT: hmm quoted Geb twice... oops. Ah well. I still say Demigod warriors with complaints need to try to fight one more often

malarious makes me giggle

You pinleg too fast. Nerf Rika?

Obviously not fast enough to keep you still. Nerf Daedalion.

I second out of principle

@Sili: <3

Well Malarious, I never had a problem fighting Demigod warriors when I was not a Demigod or Titan. I still could easily deal with them. Oh, and I fought them when stats meant far more than they do now.

Also, don't you also benefit from the take any race scenario as a Nihilist? That is something becoming a Titan/Demigod/Ascendant does to any race and class they are in. Still, does not mean they can't be beaten. It just means they are harder to beat, requiring the person to go the extra mile.

Archetypes scale on different things, which is what puts some balance efforts out of whack. Warriors scale on absolutely everything--strength and dex boost their hindering and attrition, int and con boost their substantial tankiness, weapon stats affect damage per second and affliction speed, and artifacts are available to bypass physical defence. It gets really hard to compare warriors after a while. Race and demigod are huge. Even a fully artied weapon can be less than optimal if it wasn't tempered well.

Caster types scale very differently. I would argue that guardians and druids don't scale meaningfully. For PK min/maxing, you can pick a tanky race, like lobo or human, or you can pick a quick race, like mugwump or aslaran, and then things pretty much stop mattering. Higher int means locks don't need to be sustained as long, but it doesn't help you get those locks in the first place. Artifacts can make your tanky race tankier, but never as tanky as a warrior, or artifacts can boost your damage output, but never as much as a mage or bard. Even the race choice pales next to the tankier and more speed-oriented wiccans, whose play style can be almost wholly governed by the choice between speed and tanking.

I don't think you're ever going to get universal balance without evening out the scaling. Guardians and druids need stats to matter more, all casters need better high-end artifact options, while warriors (and possibly monks, don't know here) need stats to matter less.

So, if we are going to talk about evening the stat scales out, we also then have to even all of the scales abilities wise. It would mean giving warriors more passives, removing some of the passive abilities from other archetypes who have an abundance of them, stripping the ability of some archetypes to hit their target from a distance, and removing area wide offensive capabilities of some archetypes. When it comes to balancing it all out, all of those things need to be considered. If you just consider one aspect, then you truly do unbalance the whole. Right now, I agree there are some balance issues, but I do not agree that those issues comprise how stats affect some archetypes versus others.

That's not scaling. Those are archetype features. Huge difference. Everyone in the archetype has those features. Not every warrior has artis and demigod. Not every archetype benefits from artis and demigod the way warriors do. It's not a "nerf warriors" thing, it's raise everyone's artifact ceiling to be on par with the warrior artifact ceiling (only because nerfing artifacts is cruel, so bringing warrior artis down to the level of mage/bard artis isn't feasible) and squish/stretch the spread gained from stats.

Actually what he said in reference to mugwumps as magic casters is largely paralleled in warriors. It is the fast races with weaknesses that benefit largely from demigod. I know you would like me to believe the extra 11 wounds I get from 20-21 strength is what's doing you in, but yeah... I'm not really buying that for a second.

Geb:

Just to pick - most glamours afflictions are random, bards have no control over which affliction is actually given

Yes and those features must be considered. You want your archetype to have the same boost from items that cost less to acquire on abilities that are certain to work if used. You also want stats to be changed so that everyone gets the same benefit from them, without taking into account that everyone does not have the same level of certainty and hindering ability tied to their combat. Again, all things need to be considered to balance things out. Not just a particular aspect that one feels needs to be looked at. Those features must also be considered when changing the scaling, or those features become far too powerful.

You want one aspect of the system to scale better for you? You have to then be willing to have another aspect of the system to be adjusted to compensate for the change. All of it works together to balance the whole.

Glamours is not the only specialty that bards have. Also, bards have absolute control over their auric affliction abilities (their main skill-set). When a bard goes to give the manabarbs affliction, he can be sure that is the affliction the person receives. A bard does not use colourburst with the idea that he will give stupidity this round and dizziness the next. A warrior will use a certain attack with maneuvers with the intention that he will give a certain affliction, but still have to deal with the die roll of miss, hitting another limb if it is a swing, or that the hit does connect and though the wound level is at or exceeds what is needed, the affliction is still not given.

@mal my computer got formatted so once again no system..need more giggles to keep me going! LOVE!

Lets see...

I have openly said Demigod are OP, I have included myself in that. I am not all powerful in combat but as a demigod I am alot harder to kill than normal.

ALong the lines of what Hyrtakos said.. I gain 30 damage from +1 int going from 20 to 21. My damage is not heavily changed, and I dont wound with it.

As for Geb, you dont need passives for a reason. A warrior already has damage + wounds + wounding affliction + venoms. A BM or BC can actually pass my affliction rate while getting damage/wounds. Can you miss? Sure, theres a reason stancing, parrying, and rebounding exist, if they didnt how much easier would it be for you to kill someone? Warriors have the largest effect from the stat changes, that put them far above par when all things are considered.

A good solution would be either

A) Give titan/demi 'points' and a list to buy things from where stats get more costly as you go to get a boost, where demi opens new things.

Make titan/demi be racialchanges to a new group of races. There could still be the fast balance, fast eq, tank, and balance race choices still but they would be set up to be more balanced at least.


Example of the 'points system'

Cost | Effect
------+--------------------------------------------
1 | +1 to a stat (one stat, not all of them)
3 | +2 to a stat (one stat, not all of them)
6 | +3 to a stat (one stat, not all of them)
4 | Adds a lvl of regen, max 2 for titan 3 for demi
3 | Can refresh power an extra time daily (buyable multiple times, max 3)
4 | Shrink/Enlarge
5 | Zap
5 | Upgrade Zap (must have zap)
5 | Divinefire
5 | Increased criticals
20 | Increased equilibrium or Balance lvl 1 (max 3)
8 | Faster herb balance lvl 1 (max 3)
20 | Heal faster from elixers lvl 1 (max 3)
8 | Resist a damage type (select which on purchase)
10 | Ability to fly OR burrow
5 | Boost accuracy to a weapon type (choose spec on purchase)

Idea being maybe you lose normal race and get points to build your own.. all stats start at 10 with say.. 8 stats you put in anywhere before you need to spend points to buy them. You COULD build a tank or you could build a speed race, there numbers arent set in stone but that kind of thing. If I want sipping boosts and eq boosts with regen thats all I could afford racially, etc.

I think this would give alot of customization to players who get that high while based on point values controlling how powerful they could get (better it is the more it costs) and perhaps you could give yourself weaknesses to get half the value in points weakness to fire lvl 2 get you 8 points.. 16/2 to use for something for example.