The other thread got locked - something to do with me posting as a guest. Anyway, come of the comments I got were really helpful, so I'm reposting. Once again, I'm adding logs to http://combatprogression.wordpress.com as I am learning. I'm still pretty new to it, so most of my fights are messy.

I appreciate any comments and criticism.

Most recent log is a Celest FFA from last night. I'm fighting pretty dirty, I guess, using timeslip and starleaper to charge soulless, before empressing them into a room I'd set up with icewall.

I didn't have Raziela pledged, so I had no vapors to hide soulless flings, and after putting up all my combat defenses like Wrath, Enigma, and Fool, I only had 7% reserves left. At one point I went for an absolve kill, but I don't have contemplate, so I didn't know if they were absolvable. I guess in the future I'll have the angel hit with addiction, too, to slow their sipping.

Trakis trakis trakis... for one you attacked someone already engaged in combat.. they even noted this and you didnt stop.. bad trakis! Anyway...
-You quickened then used tarot, quickening only effects eq so your tarot is still slow as sin but the timer keeps going.
-Its 4 amissio if they dont sip/sparkle/ or scroll to kill a non demi.
-You wasted a random fling on someone, by not following it up.
-You probably should have just tried something else with Shojir at the start.. try to assess and see if you can damage kill them first.
-With low power you should hold off direct combat for a bit, as you will end up drained and screwed otherwise.
-Only use absolve if they havent been sipping or you have been doing alot of drain.
-Remove the map from the arena for us maybe? ALot of your file is the map coming up as you move.
-At lower power you can ignore enigma, its a bigger deal to hide what you are using.
-Starleaper whoring is annoying, get used to not using it as well (imagine fighting someone using lots of timeslip and starleaper)
-Decide your target well ahead, if you leave be ready to return, changing targets often has a fair chance to cause problems later.
-You cant kill loyals in arena... not that you should in fair combat
-Target the target not the dog
-People sit rather still for soulless (Liam least tried to tumble though).
-Time aeon to angel when its set up for aeon, otherwise using aeon is a waste of time if they have curing.
-You have alot of bad calls it seems like too. You need to watch for allheale.. mister replacing NULL with NULLNULL
-Might wanna focus mind after a tp combo (wait to check for paralysis though)
-Oh and you will never soulless a telepath who knows what they are doing without inquisition lasting the whole way through (telepath dominate trakis to.. ohh.. kick angel)

You are ever improving!

trakis, clean up the log a little..

Yeah!!! go ahead and fight dirty. We like that in our celestines..



Go ahead and kill nil grim horror.. In fact, as i was sitting here typing this, the nilgrim horror came and dig its bloody claws behind my back. Then, it entangled me and laughed while I lay bleeding. So what the heck.. go kill that demon..

Its fair. Totally.


_{sorry.was.bored.}

Lies! Grim cant entangle >.> and he isnt really the bleeder kind either... he might chomp into your neck though.. and I wasnt even around at the time! He got off his leash again! Stupid demon poofing ability gets him right outta that leash.

Time for some sleep

You're not the first person to bring up the fact that the way I fight is "annoying". I know starleaper and timeslip makes it irritating to chase me down, but why is there such a stigma against using them? There seems to be a culture of what is fair and honorable in combat here, and I guess my question is - who set these guidelines, and why?

Thanks again for the comments. These are really helpful.

this was a horrible fight for me
I was just waiting for soulless I could've gotten out at anytime but I don't have clamp in tracking yet so i'm just using plain on axelord
yeh
running is annoying
stop it
good fighting though

'It seems like "fair combat" is a part of the player culture here. What does it mean for a fight to be "fair"?'

In this case in particular, Malarious just doesn't want his demon getting hit. However, even in the Arena, if you hit angel/demon companions enough they'll start shielding which lessens how many attacks they can perform. At the same time, though, it lets their master get a fair bit of an edge. It's actually better than trying to kill them (in my opinion, at least), though it may be best to just go straight for the master instead.

Ah. I was asking more along the lines of why stuff like timeslip/starleaper was "annoying", and why I shouldn't use them.

Ruiku, I'm not sure, but I think setting traps would help you keep me in place, especially the weird pit ones you have to climb out of. I'd really like to learn how to fight trackers who can set all those traps. Maybe chanting carcer would help, too. I know I run all the time, but I'm a pretty big wuss.

A general question: There are tactics available that seem to really annoy people. What are they, and what makes them "not okay"?

The general stance is: "Things to which there are no viable counters." Things like permastun, permanent off-balance, always hitting timeslip, etc. That's not to say that they're 'unfair' on their own, just when used to specifically shut someone down without any real work or effort on your own (especially if at the same time your own offense is continuing, as are your allies, which is the case with permastun and some other things).

Timeslip doesn't *quite* qualify IMO, because the person's offense is pretty well screwed and they aren't forcing you to swing at them, but it is still quite annoying because you don't have any choice but to hit the thing every time.

In response to Trakis:
I don't have many credits, hell, I have none, so getting the skills in tracking is a little though and startleaping/flying doesn't trigger traps
Oh, and I can't carcer
it's not that you ran, it's that you ran when nothing was wrong
Part of fighting is fighting through your afflictions, cannot be at full health and no wounds/afflictions the whole fight

-You cant kill loyals in arena... not that you should in fair combat

It seems like "fair combat" is a part of the player culture here. What does it mean for a fight to be "fair"?
Fair is a subjective phrase. Some will still kill ents outside arena, but if you cant fight the person without killing an ent you probably wont win anyway. Others do it to be annoying. Fair is usually defined as duel or even fight. Therefore you dont have 'fair' so much in jumpings.

-Target the target not the dog

What's wrong with targetting the dog? I think he tumbled or walked out, leaving his dog, so I started attacking it. I know loyals don't die, but the dog went to sleep, and I think it stopped attacking me for the rest of the fight (unless he just forgot to make it attack me).
How would you feel if he walked in and slew your angel? You lose wrath. have to spend power to recall it, possibly use eq etc. You get yours for power his costs gold (outside arena if it dies). You would be unhappy so why would he BE happy? Oh and ths was seperate from the loyals thing.. for awhile you were doing 'fling soulless at retriever'. You werent targetting ruiku for a good span of time.

-People sit rather still for soulless (Liam least tried to tumble though).

Yeah. At this point, I am a one trick pony. I'd like to start killing with absolve, or inquisition, but I didn't have the power for either during that FFA.
Yeah you have a reason I was more commenting that no one TRIED to move.

-Time aeon to angel when its set up for aeon, otherwise using aeon is a waste of time if they have curing.

Still working on angel timer. It's at the top of my list.
You can use a tick timer, alarm, etc to do it. Its not hard till you want it complex.

-You have alot of bad calls it seems like too. You need to watch for allheale.. mister replacing NULL with NULLNULL

I let Catarin's thing handle all the curing. I still don't know what a lot of afflictions do, so I'm still trying to get the feel of it. Probably a bad idea, but I'm just ignoring those weird replacing Null with Null messages.
Sounds like a plan.. ignorance is bliss.

-Might wanna focus mind after a tp combo (wait to check for paralysis though)

TP combo? Could you explain this please?
Telepathy combo. If its not paralysis then focus mind to cure whatever mental aff it might be. Telepathy is the stuff like you rub your temples.

-Oh and you will never soulless a telepath who knows what they are doing without inquisition lasting the whole way through (telepath dominate trakis to.. ohh.. kick angel)

Them dominating me to do stuff will mess up soulless by forcing me into action?
Yes acting stops soulless, that includes being forced too.

Starleaper timeslip is annoying because their first hit hits timeslip.. and second one makes you leave.. they cant build up anything while you can, giving you a huge edge and just annoying them you keep running.

My Fae don't shield.

Though to be fair, killing the Demon/Angel is a viable tactic against Celestines and Nihilists. Just as killing certain Fae from a Moondancer/Shadowdancer is viable.

Well, killing the pet seems like a good idea. Ruiku caught on and started hitting my angel in a spar after that, and it definitely slowed my offense down when my angel would just fall asleep whenever I called it to me.

How do all the good combatants get kills? I feel like there are so many escape mechanisms that it's impossible to keep someone in a room long enough to kill them.

Mostly correct. If someone with half a clue wants to run you probably aren't stopping them without nutty luck on something like carcer or aeon/stupidity (which does occasionally happen, mind.) This is of course class-dependant.

The trick is that you can only fight properly with people willing to stay in the room with you at least for a bit. Then when you mess them up a bit while they're standing still, their attempts to leave can be hindered (while you're still messing them up) and you can finish them off.

If you hadnt attacked retriever he probably wouldnt have started attacking your angel. Thing is you need the angel alot more than he needs the dog.

How do the 'good' ones kill? Guardians?

Nihilists:
-Wrack, using aeon locks or quickened
-Damage probably using omen or quickened astrology
-Soulless for tarot
-Sacrifice if you have the devotion and time for it

Celestines:
-Soulless
-Absolve
-Dont try judge without devotion and setup

Theres different ways to get there, like build two soulless, then fling one in plain sight to try to misdirect, etc.
There is also a ton of escape methods available, this seems by design.

I will summarize a talk I had with Geb which lead to Mal's motto:
1) With skill levels equal, there wont be a winner if played perfectly
2) This includes defensive playing, such as using timeslip/reflections/gust/etc to buy time to cure or heal

Basically if things are equal there wont be a winner if people played perfectly, which they dont, and you cant expect a FFA or duel to go on forever so eventually someone will win. Included in defense you would usually have escape, not just buying time, which is indeed perfect escape.

Theres different ways to handle escapes, like dont you have hermit and starleaper to leave if needed? Tumble? You can follow tumbles and starleapers. If you can escape from people be prepared to have others try to escape you.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking. It seemed pretty easy for me to run away whenever I wanted, so what was stopping other people from doing the same to me? People tumbling out of my icewall is problematic right now, since I don't have tumble to follow them.

People are welcome to kill the angel. They can be gusted away, left behind, and killed for a reason. I'm sure there's a way to make them pay for it.

Is there any way to stop a tumble once it's begun?

invoke kneel with symbol?
shield stun?
carcer?
fall?

I suggest you try not to run.. Rather force yourself to be in the same room as they are even if you are getting low, etc..

or if you really cant do that, give yourself just one or two "chances" to run then dont go over it.. In the long run, you will be a better fighter for it because you will be able to develop defenses that do not involve running..