This is the major issue.


This isn't logical at all. What evidence do you have that Lady Elohora was in league with Nigelo? If Lady Elohora said 'hey get this' and 'I feel a shadow over these proceedings thats a warning. If another guy shows up and says 'get this too' you CANNOT logically assume they are in league. Even if he says 'I'm on your team'.



It looks that way.

It would be nice if the last event was just wiped out. Players shouldn't be punished because an event was not planned well. However, that seems unlikely.

There isn't much you can do. However, in the past there have been statements that there would be learning from events with the assumption that the next ones would go better. That does not seem to be working.

So the question is what is the main problem here? It seems the main problem is the admin who are planning/running the event do not seem to really be good at predicting what the players will do and why and what the likely outcome will be if certain factors are present. For example, the Avenger. Any player could have told you the role the Avenger would play. Because it seems so obvious to players what the outcome would be with that factor, it automatically looks like the event is skewed in some way because how could the admin NOT realize it?

How to fix it? Have a couple secret members of the player community you can trust and who like events (i.e. not someone like me who logs out for most every event) that can tell you how certain factors are going to effect the event outcome, what players will do when certain NPCs tell them to do something as opposed to others, wording advice, etc. Basically people that understand current player dynamics and attitudes that can help ensure that events are as fair and balanced and equal opportunity as you are trying to make them. If you feel the admins can do this if they put more focus on it, then that works too. But there MUST be focus on it. What sounds good in theory pretty clearly doesn't always work out in reality.

It all gets more comedic as the discussion continues.

So it was a Ride or Die situation?

Hmm wow. Not sure if that occurred to anyone. Very very simple though.

What evidence do we have that she wasn't?? She told us to do this thing. We get there, this Priest is there helping us (he is in no way remotely suspicious). Turns out this Priest in the place she was sending us to (and since he was the only one telling us how to go about doing what Elohora told us to do he was kind of...important) is Morgfyre! Huh. Yeah, reason to be suspicious. Not that elohora has turned evil but that she was possessed.

There is a reason it wouldn't have occurred to anyone immediately. This is a beast of an elder god. Very powerful. Powerful enough to help cure Lady Raziela. The first thing that springs to mind probably isn't to lasso her Though someone likely would have tried it eventually if the death hadn't happened so quickly.

1. Evidently there were hints in how he talked that may have tipped us off. I got this from the Celestine channel, after the fact (by Japhiel I think) and you may have not been informed. But that's sort of irrelevant to the logic.

When an NPC shows up and says 'Hi I'm here to help you', if you believe them, that is an assumption by definition. We could have verified with Lady Elohora or another Supernal.

Just because you get an order to do something, and someone shows up with the same information you cannot assume both parties are allied or even have the same motives. Two components are not necessarily part of the same system.

Ok RL example. If a cop stops you, you can ask to see his badge.

I wasn't even thinking Pegasus = horse = ye ha to be honest.

Just for the sake of argument, I don't see why one leads to the other. Elohora knew the way to cure Raziela was through Aestra, and the "priest" also wanted Aestra for his own purposes. Why would that mean Elohora was possessed? She was acting for the benefit of Raziela. Just because the "priest" had a similar goal (up to a point) doesn't mean they were in league or necessarily follow that Elohora was possessed.

This post is critique-free, just one coment!

Most...awesome...thing...ever!

If you really want to check we can always run Lady Elohora through a taint sensing assay (now with 50% greater sensitivity!) by asking an Elder God (Terentia/Eventru) to actively check her. If they actively scan an individual that should answer the question I think.

What's the title of that Kid Rock song?

Because IC Celestians have no evidence that Aestra could have helped heal Raziela in any other way than what happened. All Celestians know is that they were apparently duped into summoning Aestra so that Mag could kill her and get the heart. It doesn't help that when people asked the Supernals where they got their information, there wasn't really a satisfactory answer.

So from an IC perspective it looks like:

1. Elohora tells us to complete a task.
2. Task is completed. Only direction given is from this Priest who is on site! Giving directions!
3. Turns out task helps the Mags. Huh.

So follow it back up the chain, given that Elohora gave us no more direction than do this task and once we got to the location all other direction was given by priest/Morgfyre, and all benefit is apparently for the enemy, it's safe to assume that Morgfyre is the one that prompted her to tell us to do it in the first place.

Nerf Riding!

Ok, fair enough! Hopefully Elohora can win back your confidence!

We're instituting mandatory drug testing for all Supernals any time they tell us to do something

This is an illogical assumption but whatever.

Speaking 100% as someone who wasn't around for the event and is only learning about it from the viewpoint of the folks who're posting about it... couldn't Celestians (some of them anyway) make the argument that Elohora was trying to help Raziela with this Aestra but might not have known exactly how it would work, and that Morgfyre found out about it and being a evil tricksy and false God of Badness decided to take advantage of the situation by tricking everyone? The Supernals mightn't have realized anymore than the mortals did what was really going on - they're not really omisentient after all. Maybe they thought another 'mortal' had figured it out and were just as glad as everyone else that some directions were being given.

So, maybe the argument could be made that the Supernals are just fallible and were taken advantage of - not so much being controlled by an outside force? Of course, I completely admit I'm probably way off base!

And... about the lassoing being the other option. Sometimes the simplest things can make all the difference, huh?

I read through some of this, read the final result from what Revan posted.

I like the ending, (no not because Mag won), but the writing of the ending.

I think the admin did fine in the matter mainly. I could care less what a god did or didn't do, since I have seen other gods from other orgs act in a similar fashion and nothing came of it, and was told that it was ok.

The major problem is and has always been with avenger and defending. There are so many flaws in avenger, that I really wish it was just plain ol removed. But of course if that were the case, some people would complain that they had to pray 10 times and not get any vengeance on others.

But from my last involvement with avenger "conflict" it was during kephera/illithoid release. The problem lies in the loopholes/unending bizarre chains of defending.

If someone defends someone, who is defending another, who has attacked joe. (this isn't exact, it is the beginning of the chain process and it would take a lot more typing to get it exact) The original defender suddenly ends up free to be pk'd or better yet if they kill someone else they end up instavengeanced at times.

If avenger isn't removed, then defending has to be looked into, deeply. Because alot of the issues fall in that as well. For now they made it a little tricky to bypass avenger in terms of allied groups killing people (one kills, and all in the group end up with suspect) but by using the route of defend it is bypassed through different means, or you end up with status/vengeance due to defending.

Was Celest treated unfair in terms of "vengeance/suspect"? Yes. Problem is it happens with all people from all orgs, this time it happened to Celest. Next time it can happen to Glomdoring. Until the avenger/defend setup is refined or removed I think we will always end up with these problems (on prime)

Something else I wanted to add.

You do not need to assume the players are idiots but I think for most events the level of mystery could be turned down a bit. The dificulty should be in doing the task or trying to pick between two options, it should not come from having no real idea on what to do next.

So for example in this case I think having something or Someone point out that we should not be so trusting of a random priest would be useful. Even if the priest gave off subtle hints during the heat of the moment they are very easy to miss. People are running around getting killed, or trying to avoid the Avenger, or trying to just stay with the group and noticing that an npc is acting slightly evil is not going to be easy to see.

In addition I think NPCs should give encouragement during an event. Perhaps not blatant "you are getting warmer, warmer, colder, warmer, hot!" type stuff but -something-. This could be even something as simple as an expression of appreciation for the current effort that is being put in.

I also think you need to be vary careful about what types of information you give two sides. If one side knows very clearly that they are looking for a heart the other side should know very clearly they need to rope the thing and get out of there before it is killed. In retrospect this is perhaps obvious but again in the heat of things I think more information is going to be better than less.

If you really want to have the event be tricky and mysterious then this should be done at first when people are fresh and not yet frustrated. It should also be done in a non PvP environment. As the event progresses the mystery should lift as more and more PvP conflict enters into things. Any time you hold back information you should be thinking about how both sides will view this after the fact. It is a lot easier to feel like things are biased when there is a mystery involved as players will feel like the other side had more obvious clues or better information.

When an event is planned to have multiple outcomes the NPCs should try to back this up. Warnings that the other side is clearly working to some end and we need to stop them. Some kind of progress update by Elders "we are empowering our demons a lot faster than they are coddling their angels but do not slack off now!' or whatever.

I guess it all boils down to the more information you give out the better.