The Heart of Aestra

by Revan

Back to Event Scrolls.

Catarin2008-04-21 20:31:28
QUOTE(Enthralled @ Apr 21 2008, 02:14 PM) 504316
Something else I wanted to add.

You do not need to assume the players are idiots but I think for most events the level of mystery could be turned down a bit. The dificulty should be in doing the task or trying to pick between two options, it should not come from having no real idea on what to do next.

So for example in this case I think having something or Someone point out that we should not be so trusting of a random priest would be useful. Even if the priest gave off subtle hints during the heat of the moment they are very easy to miss. People are running around getting killed, or trying to avoid the Avenger, or trying to just stay with the group and noticing that an npc is acting slightly evil is not going to be easy to see.

In addition I think NPCs should give encouragement during an event. Perhaps not blatant "you are getting warmer, warmer, colder, warmer, hot!" type stuff but -something-. This could be even something as simple as an expression of appreciation for the current effort that is being put in.

I also think you need to be vary careful about what types of information you give two sides. If one side knows very clearly that they are looking for a heart the other side should know very clearly they need to rope the thing and get out of there before it is killed. In retrospect this is perhaps obvious but again in the heat of things I think more information is going to be better than less.

If you really want to have the event be tricky and mysterious then this should be done at first when people are fresh and not yet frustrated. It should also be done in a non PvP environment. As the event progresses the mystery should lift as more and more PvP conflict enters into things. Any time you hold back information you should be thinking about how both sides will view this after the fact. It is a lot easier to feel like things are biased when there is a mystery involved as players will feel like the other side had more obvious clues or better information.

When an event is planned to have multiple outcomes the NPCs should try to back this up. Warnings that the other side is clearly working to some end and we need to stop them. Some kind of progress update by Elders "we are empowering our demons a lot faster than they are coddling their angels but do not slack off now!' or whatever.

I guess it all boils down to the more information you give out the better.


Very good points!!
Shaddus2008-04-21 21:09:16
Hands Celest a tissue


Guys, get over it . Think I liked people killing me, and all I got status on was Desitrus and Adella? I KNOW other people killed me.


And look at the Necromentate. I see this as a way to balance things a LITTLE bit.

Things didn't go your way. It happens. Look at the LAST event. Raziela got screwed, and you guys are coming after Mag, and pretty much just giving the communes the stinkeye. Why?

Can you say, healing kegs?

Regardless, the Admins are only human. *chin*

I am sure at some time, Magnagora will get screwed, and Celest will come out on top.

Estarra, and everyone else, keep doing the wonderful job you are already doing.
Rika2008-04-21 21:16:24
QUOTE(Shaddus Mes @ Apr 22 2008, 09:09 AM) 504349
Hands Celest a tissue

And look at the Necromentate. I see this as a way to balance things a LITTLE bit.


Except Magnagora can easily put the Star into the same state as the Necromentate too...

How has that got any relevance to how events are going?

Or are you saying because org X is doing so well, all events must be to screw X over so things are more 'balanced'? So you work to be on top, and you lose. You take part in events, and you lose. Why would anyone ever care about politics/events ever again?
Xenthos2008-04-21 21:18:36
QUOTE(rika @ Apr 21 2008, 05:16 PM) 504353
Why would anyone ever care about politics/events ever again?

Good question... and has been one for quite some time now.
Shaddus2008-04-21 22:19:21
No, merely saying that people get screwed over, we can't all be happy happy joy joy all the time, and expect our way. Roll with the punches
Unknown2008-04-21 22:50:21
Since Aestra is still Hajamin's pegasus, have her muster up her remaining strength (and I mean elder god's beat strength, not mount strength she displayed in the temple) and destroy the pillar, remove all the status that was given during the event, refund all experience lost, cure raziela and redeem the supernals credibility.
That will solve the problem.
Karnagan2008-04-21 23:01:45
I wasn't present for this event, but yeah, in a lot of ways this seems messed up. From what Catarin appears to be saying, Celestians had status on the Magnagorans participating, and were trying to defend the pegasus denizen without attacking the Mags and getting avengered. So naturally, if they fail to attack the Magnagorans, they lose their denizen. Ouch.

Want to solve it? Just have the Avenger stop covering certain locations on Prime during events. Fix it so that you can SURVEY to find out if an area on Prime is Avenger territory, and have the Avenger Himself shout out that he can't protect a given area, for whatever reason. The Soulless presence is too strong, an Elder God is interfering- anything you like.

As for getting duped into fulfilling a certain condition- it seems to be a common theme across IRE. I've participated in at least one event where our trusting natures towards a given denizen got our Temple blown apart, with zero warning and no alternate victory conditions. sad.gif But then, I think the God involved was remodeling it anyways. freaked.gif At least in this case Celest's efforts got the pegasus back, which is what both sides wanted, but I agree that some hint about what to do next should have been put out. Even so, Riding is the Least Useful Skill in the game- not being distinctly Lusternian, therefore sucking by definition- so it's probably better to not make an event condition that relies on it. I have enough credits to trans it and even I don't want it, as it supposedly kills my ability to stance and I can't vault back on the horse without an unacceptable balance loss.

I love the events here normally, so it isn't fun to think that other people don't. The critical part here, though, is that if your player base feels slighted by an event twice in a row- AND you admit that they have a lot of good points- then they're going to stop participating in the things the admins have put a lot of time and effort into creating. And I don't think anyone wants that, least of all the admins themselves.
Estarra2008-04-21 23:03:11
QUOTE(Karnagan @ Apr 21 2008, 04:01 PM) 504401
Want to solve it? Just have the Avenger stop covering certain locations on Prime during events. Fix it so that you can SURVEY to find out if an area on Prime is Avenger territory, and have the Avenger Himself shout out that he can't protect a given area, for whatever reason. The Soulless presence is too strong, an Elder God is interfering- anything you like.


We're actually considering a system to disable the Avenger in certain areas during events.
Shaddus2008-04-21 23:05:14
I vote for that.

Afterwards, make Celest kill a few of the Moon and Night Avatars,once each for each demon lord they took their rage out on instead of Serenwilde and Glomdoring.

Maybe we can play round robin?

This time, Celest got screwed over. Next time, it's glom. Then Magnagora. Then Seren. Then Celest.

You know, just so we know to prepare for being screwed over, in advance.

Want some cheese to go with that WHINE?
Unknown2008-04-21 23:14:20
Ideally, a situation like this shouldn't happen again in the future, and to any org and not just Celest. It doesn't help anyone if it's just our turn today, yours tomorrow, and Seren's next week. There's something wrong with that.
Ashteru2008-04-21 23:33:11
Some of you might take this wrong, but:

So Celest should be allowed to keep dominating the whole world uncontested? That doesn't make it fun for Magnagora, or anyone else who thinks of warring with Celest, for that matter. (See: reluctance of anyone to have a war in a conflict game) You might damn me if I say this, but there has to be some mechanical regulation besides the "5 days till DL can be killed again."
There's admitted OOC-animosity between Celestian and Magnagoran players, so we can't rely on them two to reign themselves in, like it seems to happen between Seren and Glom (mostly). I am all for Celest earning something for being on the top et al, but it being on the top for too long makes the game slightly one-sided and boring for the other factions.

At least in my oppinion.
Sarrasri2008-04-21 23:35:10
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 21 2008, 04:33 PM) 504414
Some of you might take this wrong, but:

So Celest should be allowed to keep dominating the whole world uncontested? That doesn't make it fun for Magnagora, or anyone else who thinks of warring with Celest, for that matter. (See: reluctance of anyone to have a war in a conflict game) You might damn me if I say this, but there has to be some mechanical regulation besides the "5 days till DL can be killed again."
There's admitted OOC-animosity between Celestian and Magnagoran players, so we can't rely on them two to reign themselves in, like it seems to happen between Seren and Glom (mostly). I am all for Celest earning something for being on the top et al, but it being on the top for too long makes the game slightly one-sided and boring for the other factions.

At least in my oppinion.


QFT
Catarin2008-04-21 23:55:14
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 21 2008, 05:33 PM) 504414
Some of you might take this wrong, but:

So Celest should be allowed to keep dominating the whole world uncontested? That doesn't make it fun for Magnagora, or anyone else who thinks of warring with Celest, for that matter. (See: reluctance of anyone to have a war in a conflict game) You might damn me if I say this, but there has to be some mechanical regulation besides the "5 days till DL can be killed again."
There's admitted OOC-animosity between Celestian and Magnagoran players, so we can't rely on them two to reign themselves in, like it seems to happen between Seren and Glom (mostly). I am all for Celest earning something for being on the top et al, but it being on the top for too long makes the game slightly one-sided and boring for the other factions.

At least in my oppinion.


That may be true but in the end, is that the fault of Celest players? They play the game as the game is presented to be played. They do well at it. You're essentially saying that if a group of players do too well than the admin should balance things out by forcing them to lose? I'm sorry but how is the game being designed in such a fashion that allows for one faction to dominate for extended periods of time then why should the players get punished for it?

That just loses players. The solution is to figure out how to solve the problem of the tendency for just one org to always be on top. Not to stick it to the players when they dare to succeed. Not that I think the admin are purposefully doing this but this seems to be what you're suggesting is a reasonable thing to do.
Morgfyre2008-04-22 00:02:17
We don't design events to punish players or factions for doing well. That was not the case here and is not the case with other events. Ergo, that is a poor rationalisation.
Ashteru2008-04-22 00:16:33
QUOTE(Catarin @ Apr 21 2008, 11:55 PM) 504430
That may be true but in the end, is that the fault of Celest players? They play the game as the game is presented to be played. They do well at it. You're essentially saying that if a group of players do too well than the admin should balance things out by forcing them to lose? I'm sorry but how is the game being designed in such a fashion that allows for one faction to dominate for extended periods of time then why should the players get punished for it?

That just loses players. The solution is to figure out how to solve the problem of the tendency for just one org to always be on top. Not to stick it to the players when they dare to succeed. Not that I think the admin are purposefully doing this but this seems to be what you're suggesting is a reasonable thing to do.

As I said, it's not Celest's fault for doing good, however, it will have to live with the consequences. "With great power comes great responsibility."
And I did not say punished, I said that you should indeed be rewarded for being on top, but an obvious imbalance has to be dealt with, somehow. I'd say that recent events are effectively a sign that the game is not designed to be dominated for an extended amount of time. Obviously it takes more to bring Celest down to a level with the others, but it was humbled for now.

And it might lose players, but in the end, it's mathematics, the choice between the good of 1 to the good of 3. It might be short-term solutions, but they help to incite some spirit in the players of other orgs again. I am indeed suggesting that organisations that do well should be worse off in bigger events than the others. I don't see why the players of the other three organisations should be punished for doing worse than the best organisation.
To speak less hypotethically, let's look at the situation before the event:
Celest dominates, Mag is weak.
Now, in the recent event, Celest got the stick and Magplayers had fun again.
What would have happened if Mag had gotten an event like this, maybe dealt to them by a random generator that spat out the org that should be hit? Mag would've been distinctly worse off than Celest, far, far worse.

So yes, in the end, if such events happen, they should hit the org that can handle them the best.
Now, I might not agree with the way this has happened (Avenger, annoying grinding), but I do agree that orgs that are doing good should be hit by events that have them reeling a bit, but in a way that it is fun for everyone.
Karnagan2008-04-22 00:21:54
QUOTE(Catarin @ Apr 21 2008, 08:25 PM) 504430
That may be true but in the end, is that the fault of Celest players? They play the game as the game is presented to be played. They do well at it. You're essentially saying that if a group of players do too well than the admin should balance things out by forcing them to lose? I'm sorry but how is the game being designed in such a fashion that allows for one faction to dominate for extended periods of time then why should the players get punished for it?

That just loses players. The solution is to figure out how to solve the problem of the tendency for just one org to always be on top. Not to stick it to the players when they dare to succeed. Not that I think the admin are purposefully doing this but this seems to be what you're suggesting is a reasonable thing to do.


I don't think it's a concept of punishing your success, so much as evening out the gameworld. When all the force ends up on one side of the equation or the next, for whatever reason, the admins as a team need to take a good look at what's going on. Now, if orgs aren't obviously broken in some way that isn't attracting a lot of people, such as if the leadership was corrupt/ incompetent, then the admins can't really step in and force people to RP a certain way. Even when Glomdoring was at critical mass, mainly due to holding to a given RP path, the admins were still taking flak for their intervention.

In WoW, when sides are unbalanced, you can just load up a Battleground and fight in a place where teams are naturally evened out. The sheer size of the world tends to even out the difference. Here? Only a few people are required to tilt the game direction to one side or the next. And if novices are signing up in greater numbers for one side versus another, it's something that a city leadership can't control at all. Not without fundamentally changing the broadest strokes of our RP, if it turns out that Taint isn't a concept that the vast majority of people coming into the game want to sign up for. Nor is the problem restricted to the new people coming to the game. It briefly occurs to me that if Thoros and Ceren had stayed in Celest, the demigod battle would be even more stacked than it is now.

I believe that Celest, for multiple RP and diplomatic reasons, has made a good treaty with Serenwilde. It's great for them. But at the end of the day, it's also unbalancing conflict to the point where it's the two largest orgs against the much smaller ones. The point to which this is affecting the game can be seen in both Domoths and Villages. "Lrn2play" towards people who work really hard on one side or the other probably isn't going to cut it as a response. It might suck to force a treaty breakdown, but how much more is it going to suck when a given week in Lusternia is pretty much "kill Demon Lords/ grab domoth/ profit." All you're really doing is stacking up power and comms in Celest and Serenwilde with minimal effort. And that boredom kills MMO's.
Aison2008-04-22 00:26:32
QUOTE(Shaddus Mes @ Apr 21 2008, 02:09 PM) 504349
Hands Celest a tissue
Guys, get over it . Think I liked people killing me, and all I got status on was Desitrus and Adella? I KNOW other people killed me.
And look at the Necromentate. I see this as a way to balance things a LITTLE bit.

Things didn't go your way. It happens. Look at the LAST event. Raziela got screwed, and you guys are coming after Mag, and pretty much just giving the communes the stinkeye. Why?

Can you say, healing kegs?

Regardless, the Admins are only human. *chin*

I am sure at some time, Magnagora will get screwed, and Celest will come out on top.

Estarra, and everyone else, keep doing the wonderful job you are already doing.


I pk forgave you since I feel like you're my retarded cousin or something. smile.gif

Celest goes after Mag because if we went to war with Glom we'd be screwed. Seren is fickle and could be all 'pro-mag!' next week. We don't go to war with Seren because they are already a hassle, and we don't want to have to fight mag+seren. Plus, Celest is meant to make war with Mag.

You guys don't have any problem with this event because you came out of winning (with a pillar that likely gives you trueheal. ...which would not surprise me at this point). Had Celest won (re: if the new avenger system had been thought of and implemented at the start of this event), this thread would be 15 pages long.

QUOTE(Morgfyre @ Apr 21 2008, 05:02 PM) 504433
We don't design events to punish players or factions for doing well. That was not the case here and is not the case with other events.


With all due respect, your actions in game completely tarnish that statement. There really are just... no words.
Estarra2008-04-22 00:40:38
QUOTE(Aison @ Apr 21 2008, 05:26 PM) 504440
With all due respect, your actions in game completely tarnish that statement. There really are just... no words.


I have the utmost confidence that Morgfyre and all other admins are not out to skew any event or to "get" any group. I understand why you may think so but really you are completely off base.
Ashteru2008-04-22 00:40:57
QUOTE(Morgfyre @ Apr 22 2008, 12:02 AM) 504433
We don't design events to punish players or factions for doing well. That was not the case here and is not the case with other events. Ergo, that is a poor rationalisation.

Why not? If you make the punishment a nice RP-event intermingled with some fighting (thanks to the new Avenger change), I am pretty sure there would be less complaining from all sides.
For example, let's just hypothetically reverse roles, Mag is in top, Celest is on the floor.
One day, a giant wave from the inner sea comes, rolls over the SoD and hits Magnagora with brunt force, tearing down parts of the wall as well as a few of the noble's buildings.
Magnogarans would have to travel to a few different locations to talk with Stonecarvers, forgers, etc. to get the blueprints/workers/whatever to rebuild them. Somewhere in the mountain range, five or six new rooms are opened for the duration of the event called "quarry", a few slaves work there to get the necessary stone to rebuild. Whenever Mag feels strong enough, they can go grab a few transport slaves who can't be moved except per foot. If Celest manages to hinder them and kill the (critimmune) slave, they get a small boost in marble comms for a while for Celest, if Mag manages, they can slowly watch as the districts are rebuilt. In the end, shortly before the wall is completely rebuilt, workers could discover a hidden treasury full of books/jewelry/whatever, giving Magnagora a boost in gems/new history/stuff and gets the sense of accomplishment because they managed to rebuild their city, Celest gets the satisfaction of seeing Magnagora in trouble/some marble comms.

Okay, I may not be a good plotwriter, but I don't see how too many people could complain about above plot. It has terrifict ways to expand RPly.
Asarnil2008-04-22 00:54:03
QUOTE(Ashteru @ Apr 22 2008, 10:03 AM) 504414
There's admitted OOC-animosity between Celestian and Magnagoran players, so we can't rely on them two to reign themselves in, like it seems to happen between Seren and Glom (mostly). I am all for Celest earning something for being on the top et al, but it being on the top for too long makes the game slightly one-sided and boring for the other factions.

How much do you want to bet?

When Magnagora was the dominant force, we stood down NUMEROUS times to give Celest a chance to recover. Not to say if I could go back in time I would do it again seeing as how they are reacting now, but Daevos put his foot down and stopped a lot of people from griefing Celest unnecessarily, and I know I got a heap of people to call off raids heaps of times because Celest was being raided too much. When Celest was really down, the only time we ever raided was counter-raiding and we gave Celest time to recover after each one.