If we keep the sip penalty for viscanti and keep their charisma the same, how would you balance around that?

By giving all the other races a -3 sip balance. I'd offer constructive advice, but I don't think it's possible with a statement like that. With low charisma, low intelligence, and a sip penalty, a brood viscanti would get owned so quickly. Make the sip penalty -1, and make it level 3 regeneration of health, mana, and ego. That's just a start.

The answer to that is -don't-. Nix the sip penalty and give viscanti better cha. We've been saying this for the past 3 years. Reduce the taint regen to 1 if that'll balance it out and give us another weakness. And master/brood viscanti need more stat points to compare to specced elfen an merian. There's the answer.. that is how to fix viscanti. I don't see any other way.

Also: What about specced bards and monks? We're doing race rebalancing now, so why not get that out of the way as well?

If my understanding of these changes is correct and balance/equilibrium penalties scale similarly to balance/equilibrium bonuses, then Igasho were given a fire weakness because they are faster now.

I honestly do think we can keep the sip penalty and charisma of viscanti and balance around it. Think of another way without being silly! Seriously, don't be obstinate or take a "there's no other way" attitude just because you are set in one direction.

For those who asked, we have thought of letting the org races specialize as bards and monks but are waffling on whether to even do it. Ideally, we'd not add two whole new stat reconfigurations and looked at bards being able to use the mage/druid/wiccan configurations (which sort of works). However, monks do not really fit well with the warrior configuration (even swapping strength adjusts with dex). So... hmm... still not on the table.

Change the lvl 3 taint regen to lvl 3regen anywhere, give viscanti lvl 3 resistance to everything. That'll balance the sipping penalty =/

Edit: Seriously though, the sipping penalty IS bad... it's crippling... I can't in a million years see why you want to keep it. Please please reconsider and listen to what everyone who is and has been a viscanti is saying

Edit2: As for your spec post... Kephera and illithoid should be the monk specs, not the current city/commune spec races

We may consider it, but your sarcastic suggestions really aren't helping your case at all.

I apologize for the sarcastic tune. Just frustrating to be told no over and over when evryone is practically screaming the answer. I know you have our best wishes in mind, and I do appreciate all you do

Give them an ability similar to illithoids where they absorb the Taint out of dead corpses or something similar for health/mana/ego, let this be done on their own balance so they can scroll/regular sip/sparkle/this thing all at once if needed. Corpses might not be best, maybe some commodity (powerstones? this is tough) would be better. As an idea.

As far as the Cha front goes, we might have to test the faster village influencing things in an actual revolt before making more comment, I feel.

Aside from that:

The viscanti sip balance won't be the end of the world. There are already viscanti in the game, and they're being upgraded. Not downgraded.

If Viscanti are to be further upgraded however, Merians need to be tweaked as well.

As much as the org-specific race specs do what they're supposed to do and make sense, I think monks really should spec off kephera and illithoid. Current racial specs all depend on a particular skillset (Stag and Moon, for instance) so monk ones would make sense to go off Harmony and Stealth for monks.

As for bards, I don't think any particular solution makes particular sense, a fact which points at how undefined bards are. (Not that monks aren't too; just happens to be that race is one of the few things about them that is defined.) So using the same races as the other guilds works as well as anything else. At least elfen are lyrical; the other spec races don't seem like particularly good matches though (trill being a possible exception later). I like the idea that bards might use a different race, if only to help distinguish them from the other guilds, but no race really seems like a good choice.

Yes. Illithoids need a bit of tweaking to be viable monks (unless there's a skill planned for monks where -ego- and not charisma makes a difference).

Since I guess I am not complain-y enough to be answered to, I'll just make another radical suggestion:
Just remove Havens, Divinefire, Statbonuses and Regen from Demigods and Ascendants, and make it so that the special thing about Demigod is the essence itself. I mean, technically, Demigod is the only level you can have infinite exp with, so it gets very hard to lose.
And Ascendants can't lose it at all.
Let them keep zap, shout, and Ascendants the skillset and that's fine then.

To be honest, demigods probably had it coming, but I'd have preferred the regens to at least stay/slightly downgraded if the stats are getting nerfed.

Sorry, just trying to figure out what all this would do to the trill race. Does it mean when the do certain influence skills that involve seduction, like flattery, maybe compliments, work more successfully or what?


Also, just throwing something out there. I think it's weird that Trills don't have the ability to swoop down from the skies and pick up people. I know that they're skills that give you the ability to do it, i think. But how come we don't have it in the first place. Plus it be really nifty in battle, -evilgrin-

EDIT: Yay, post got burried. Either way, seems like i'm the only one worried about the Trill Changes, really XP

You've nver had to deal with a viscanti sip balance. It's terrible. The viscanti in the game chose vicanti for RP, not for combat. How do I know this? I asked them! Viscanti would be mildly viable if they just got rid of it. I've been testing the new viscanti and the upgrades given still are not able to balance out the sipping penlty. Karnagan, myself, silvanus even Linaeve and more agree

Also, if viscanti get buffed, merian do not need to be tweaked. Why? Have you seen the comparison charts, Talkan? Merian are already the best specced race by far. You don't buff the best because you fixed the worst.

From what I understand and granted I could be wrong, the balance/equilibrium change isn't that big which makes sense since it wasn't hey if you have a Level 2 balance disadvantage it'll be like having a level 1. Whereas it was Hey you're a little weak to fire so now we're going to make it so you're a Walking, Talking, Breathing, FIREBALL Waiting to happen.

All we asked was that Igasho, who ironically enough the only NPC Igasho's Thalos and I can think of live in a place where you have to SCALE to get to, get Scale as a racial ability. As me and Thalos were saying in our conversation. Did those Igasho get set on fire and run up the damn mountain but since it was a lite weakness they didn't die?

If I had to balance out Viscanti sip penalties? Only two other races in the game have sip penalties: Aslarans when the balance advantage was at full strength, and Dracnari with relatively high STR/CON/INT/CHA. Even considering that fact, up to now there have been relatively few dracnari. If you insist that Viscanti need a sip penalty, which currently cripples their ability to replenish health or mana or heal wounds outside Tainted environments, then fine.

In terms of making the race playable for anything but RP, at minimum I would say remove the Taint restriction on their regeneration, dropping it down to level 2 if you have to, or fix it so the regeneration can occur inside poison gas. Bump base INT up to 14, and we'll take it into account that the planned influencing benefits will help out during revolts, making Viscanti acceptable influencers (I assume that a 7 CHA race would be made "Acceptable" or equivalent to 11 CHA minimum, in influencing with a level 3 advantage). The planned resists are ok, but the advantage would have to be similar to what Aslarans had if you seriously want Brood Viscanti to be even slightly viable for general combat purposes. You've insisted on maintaining their current Charisma, which is your prerogative, but it also dooms any character that has any desire to debate, for instance. A Brood Viscanti under the new system is basically like an orclach with no fire weakness, at the cost of a sip penalty and only being able to regenerate in Taint. Or a relatively low dex Krokani, except of course with sip penalty and a few extra resists. All of those races are extraordinarily rare.

This isn't dumping on your plan to try and make races different. I get that. But you need to look at a given race specialization and ask "In how many situations would this be viable compared to a Shadowcaster Faeling or Merian/Elfen Lord?" Denizen combat, duels, group PVP, and influencing all have to factor into the decision. Given that most of the other racial specializations seem to be all-singing/ all-dancing influencers and fighters, Magnagora is looking for the same for Viscanti. Maybe nullifying one level of the current sip penalty will help: but given the difficulty many non-Demigods already have in curing warrior wounds, it's asking a lot for them to take a sip penalty. You can put one on, but a sip penalty is considered a large deal by most of your players.

EDIT: Talkan, compare an Imperial Merian to a Master Viscanti. 3 INT, 3 CHA, an equilibrium boost, and no sip penalty makes level 2 weakness to fire/lightning and the Con difference a nice tradeoff. When comparing the benefits granted to Merian Lords versus Brood Viscanti, the benefits are even more pronounced. The low Merian strength and con are not only obliterated, but actually equal or surpass the Brood Viscanti, while retaining usable charisma and superior intelligence. It's not even a contest.

It should say something about how crippling sip and herb penalties are that of the three that have them, two have no reason to be played beyond RP, and the last one won't soon when the changes go through.

Maybe these sip penalties are a lot harsher than they seem from the outside?

Maybe the whole mechanic of sip penalities needs to be looked at if you actually want people to play those races?

I say, get rid of sip penalties for everyone. That makes it easier all around. It copensates Aslaran for the balance thing, fixes Viscanti, and makes it so Dracnari might actually be seen in more than Dylosis numbers. ...ooooh, maybe a poll?