Favours are actually awarded quite often in Magnagora, from what I can tell. I really don't think the city is stingy with them at all.

I'd like to open for anyone who has an issue to bring up

Oh my, why haven't we thought of that? We haven't been doing that for months now. It's so simple, isn't it - fix your city! Well we do try and, in fact, we tried like hell to prevent Demon Lords/Crypt/Necromentate falling. But what can you do when you try but no one cares anyhow? When simplest of things aren't obeyed (please watch the bloody Nil nonstop and care to read the SCROLL detailing what to do in case of DL attack) and people are discouraged and leave because the negatives from outside override positives from inside no matter what they are. That would be about it.

Maybe Mag should look at changing the atmosphere within the city. I think it is obvious that it isn't working, and it only encourages more people to complain.

I know what it takes to fix a city. I was one of the few back when Celest was getting thrown around all the time to step and make changes. There is more to it than just fixing how your favor or your power laws. Morale, welfare, and a sense of unity is needed. I worked like hell to get one in Celest, and it worked. I know Mag can do the same!

I’m a firm believer in the power of aesthetics, whether you’re trying to sell tissue paper, or getting people to invest in a make believe city.

Really, I think that’s one challenge that Magnagora and Glomdoring face when it comes to new players. Their particular surface themes are going to appeal to fewer people than Celest or Serenwilde. I know that in truth, there is a great amount of grey area, but to a new player, or someone who’s not going to be playing for very deep reasons, the aesthetic can become determinative.

Even skill sets make Magnagora and Glomdoring come off looking like, on the surface, a bunch of disturbed serial killers. Crucifying, making masks from victims faces, acts of cannibalism. It’s like what Geb touched on- people not immersed in the game expect Celest to act “good”, and Magnagora to act “evil”.

I don’t think the appearance should be changed, because it is part of what makes them unique. But, I do think that it is something that needs to be considered by the players there. I know there is the capability and will in Magnagora to really improve their situation- the city wide drive to strengthen the necromentate is great evidence of this. There were signs everywhere, credit rewards for assisting, eloquent news posts, you name it. Magnagora gets an A for effort in that particular instance.

Something I think that isn’t really played up enough is the whole “freedom from the tyranny of Celest” aspect. The fundamentals for it are there, and Shikha even touched on it in her yelling last night. But you seldom see it, and it is not keyed in on especially well. Often times events and conversations seem more centered on supporting the demon lords, or something pseudo-evil, like, bluntly, feeding a Pegasus heart to a dark, consuming god. I feel like Magnagora could have better appeal if they really played up propaganda that they are the “good” force in the Basin. They are the rebels who have gained freedom from the Holy Celestine Empire, which even now seeks to spread its imperious ways across the lands of the Basin once again, and only the city of Magnagora stands as the last bulwark against their conquest. Yes, demons are consorted with, but they are a means to a noble end- freedom from an oppressive empire, freedom from a regimented religion, and the only hope of having the strength required to defeat the Soulless should they rise again.

It can work, even the Nihlist help file describes them as often more pragmatic and material than spiritual.

Of course, even if Magnagora is able to change their image, they have to put it out there too. I think Shikha had the right idea, even though it was rough on her. Make public news posts that aren’t full of sarcastic personal attacks, but ideological propaganda. Play down the “dark” aspects externally, and play up aspects that will garner sympathy with the reader. Create an external image for Magnagora, and make it convincing enough that it works even internally as a unifying force. It’s one thing to RP saying things like “do this for the engine”, or “do this for our great city”, but if neither of those things hold real weight in the mind of the listener, they aren’t effective. Make a cause people can get behind, and then attach Magnagora as an integral part of that cause. Slinging insults and witty remarks aren’t going to do much on their own, and trying your heart out, like Shikha, Nariah, and others were doing isn’t going to help when you’re fighting against the stream in numbers of dedicated citizens to a large degree. When Celest is on top, like now, Magnagora has the advantage of appearances that New Celest is bent on conquest of the basin, and they are the only thing standing against them. I really don't feel that gets used enough.

Edit: The outward image is something I think that Divine can help with immensely without complaints of too much direct involvement arising, and that goes for every city and commune. When the Divine talk, people listen, and when they ask someone to do something, it usually gets done. They also can get groups of people to focus on a task much more easily than most mere mortals.

QFT.

There's a definite problem with cohesion. A lot of time during raids (whether on or by Magnagora) people just fail to get involved. Obviously there's the problem of demoralisation, since Magnagora's on the "losing side" at the moment, but by adopting such a defeatist attitude the problem's just being compounded. Dudes need to dust themselves off and throw themselves back in the game 'cause that's the only way they're going to succeed.

Also Raindays the perceived interpretation of Magnagora's skillsets is not a stumbling block, since Magnagora has been successful in the past and will be again. If anything more violent, conflict-oriented players gravitate towards societies that are stereotypically evil in appearance.

Yes.

This will sound condescending and that's hardly my intent but Magnagora really needs to stop blaming external sources for their problems. IC, okay, sure. OOC? No. Yeah, players from every org rant when something bad happens but there is a very consistent trend of Magnagoran players across the board blaming Celest, the admin, the envoys, etc. for why they are not doing well.

Let's take the recent surge of offensive actions against Mag. There was an opportunity for Magnagora to get at Celest by participating in an event that branded one of Celest's supernals. I understand the short term morale boost that something like this would provide but if you know your organization to be incapable or uninterested in dealing with the repercussions of that action then in the long term it would be a bad idea to participate. But it was done, Raziela was branded and Celest - as anyone could guess they would do - killed all the demon lords.

Magnagoran players complained quite loudly about this OOCly. But then not a week later, there was the opportunity for Magnagora to get to Celest against via an event. Again, all the demon lords had just recently been slain. But Magnagora went ahead and did it anyway. All the demon lords were slain again in response with the goal to bring down the Necromentate. While I cannot say that they would not have been slain anyway as anger was still high over the branding itself, this further action didn't really help matters.

There are more examples of this. Magnagoran players raiding Celestian territories in off hours leaving the rest of Magnagora to deal with the retalitory raids. Magnagorans going against the Serenwilde back when the Serenwilde and Celest still greatly disliked each other (you can keep bringing up the Kephera event all you like but relations were not exactly peachy after that.) giving them a common enemy to band against.

So what is my point? That you shouldn't play the game and take the opportunities you get to "hurt" the other org? No. You should. If you are willing to handle the consequences. It is unfair to do something IC against an org and then OOCly state you think they shouldn't respond in kind ICly because it will drive away players or it is somehow griefing. It really just does not work that way.

No Celestian player is purposefully trying to get Magnagoran players to quit. No Celestian player wants Magnagoran players to not enjoy the game. However, at the same time, most Celestian players do not feel like Magnagora's enjoyment of the game is their responsibility. And it isn't.

Celestian players want to enjoy the game as well. There are precious few avenues for "success" in the game that do not involve inconveniencing other players in some way. You see taking down the Necromentate as griefing Mag. Celest sees taking down the Necromentate as an achievement. One of the more difficult achievements in the game.

I guess my point is, if Magnagora is so bad off that Magnagorans are quitting the game, you guys need to cocoon for awhile. Basically pull your fighters in, don't raid, don't do the "tick off other orgs via event". Just lay low and rebuild internally. If you want, work out something OOCly with Celest players that would get them to lay off you awhile in a way that makes IC sense. Celest has had to do that several times in its history to climb out of the holes it found itself in. It may be harsh but if you keep acting ICly like you can take the heat, you're going to keep getting it.

p.s. Kaalak bounties don't encourage griefing. The opposite in fact. They provide a focus for fighters so they're not just running around killing anyone who is a city enemy but looking at those who have actually done something to Celest. But you can disagree. I did it so I think you're obliged to disagree with it on principal.

This was a player requested change, why because first of all we believed that we should be allowed to kill people doing the rift quests instead of having to bodge the quest, secondly because we believed it was only fair that if Magnagora's protection of ur'dead was encouraged by Avechna, so should Celest's protection of merians. It is amuzing you complain only about merians and gorgogs and do not ask for other bashing areas like Shallach, both lucidian places, tosha, Dracnari place, etc to remove their enemy status. I even remember Magnagora encouraging geomancers to keep a meld in Shallach just so people could go kill those hunting ur'dead.

All very well, but were is the part to make the drain on the necromate stronger? were is the assurance that the necromate can actually fall. Part of why people leave is because there is nothing 'meaningful' to do. It is near impossible to bring down the necromate without bordering on griefing so suggest a fix for that with it.

Also being the 'underdog' org can be quite fun, for the most part when I was active in Celest it was when it was pounded repeatedly by Magnagora. When the Supernals got attacked on a daily basis, when Murphy was hunting me down on water because I was a level 30 aquamancer trying to raise Raziela and I was so excited because I was managing to keep out of his claws. It was frustrating at times but in the end -that- were a lot more fun times then Lusternia is now.

Amuzingly I grew bored with Celest when it came on top and stopped playing for quite some time.


I never understood this obsession of Magnagora to call people cancelling out lich to be griefing (correct me if I am wrong but I believe vitae is no longer effected by inquisition), Lich was not a xp-loss reduction skill but it was a escape dead skill. Now that it will give xp loss I am sure it will no longer be stripped by inquisition. As for forcing to pray, how can you seriously rant about that when the requirement of Magnagora to get unenemied is to force someone to pray. Lead by example, it helped between Seren and Glom.


And this is why we have envoys. But balance is such a fickle thing, what we perceive as balanced at one point can be utterly destroyed by one person being really good with the skills (see Geb, Thoros, etc)

Not all of Glomdoring's skillsets are gruesome or even remotely evil! Have a look a Night

And then have a look at Crow.

Or just Xenthos.

What's that? You just volunteered for a one-way visit to my nest?

How kind of you!

Thank you, Rainydays, for this very constructive post. It managed to, single-handedly, set my mind back on track thanks to this outsider's perspective. The whole 'We managed to throw off the shackles of the opressive Empire and battle for freedom' is such an obvious thing to me that, silly as it may sound, it did not occur to me that in fact it takes some tinkering to figure out. And definitely with the right twist it can be used to our advantage and to rally people.

The only reason why I am beyond upset with Lusternia right now is that it is rather disheartening to see all the efforts go to ruin. Everyone, especially the young ones, really put their hearts into the spiking and I was so pleased to see all the signs/crier/posts have such a strong impact. We also managed to save the Black Crypt and a lot of preparation was involved with that (there was no second attack in the end but we were as ready as possible) and that is all good but all five Demon Lords falling AGAIN is like not returning to status quo from a weak before but even further back. And we KNOW that we will be exactly in the same place next week because there is nothing we can do about it. If you don't manage to slay the Demon Lords at 3am because by some miracle we (read those few who care) will be there, you'll get it done at 9am - simple.

And just in case someone wishes to say that feeling like giving up just because this one attempt failed is childish - this is just one example of things that have been piling up on us for months now. We also know the problem does not lie with favours or power laws (like I even care about power) and it is being worked on. Funny thing about demoralisation combat wise though because nothing kills your will to get involved like, say, Narsrim's camping in the mountains for weeks upon end. Because the purpose there is not to pick up a fight but to single out people and force them to pray (not saying he is wrong in splitting up the opponents of course, it is only sensible) and it is not about the Earth Lords at all. People can see that, it does not take a genius, and go and <- chilling in manses. Especially the young ones are so eager to get involved because to them not replying to cries of the imps or Earth Lords is like roleplaying suicide. Alas the above ends up happening.

Sorry to derail your thread Mal! I'm done, I swear.

PS. I lied, I am compelled to answer the following:

''So what is my point? That you shouldn't play the game and take the opportunities you get to "hurt" the other org? No. You should. If you are willing to handle the consequences. '' - Catarin

Were the communes not complaining not so long ago that they were almost forced into the binding of Raziela? Could they have refused and disregarded the fact it could put them into such bad terms with the fae? Nay, they say they could not. When Baalphegar called me in about Raziela and told to prepare the amulet, could I have said no? Not really... I can totally see how that conversation would go though:

''Hey, Baal, sorry mate but it ain't happening. I don't want to piss off Celest. What? No, are you stupid? Aren't you all about bidding your time and weaving the web and stalking the shadow before you are ready to strike? Huh?! HUH?! Hey, what's that pointy thing you have there...''

That was an inhumanly fast response. Looks like faeling balance needs another nerf.

You'll be a bit too occupied to worry about that, I'm afraid.

Decomposing takes a lot out of someone.

Why would the players suggest this? Isn't it easier to kill a pig or even Gognigin than to kill the person trying to do the quest? And if you do kill them, sure you get status but won't they probably drop the items they needed to do the quest anyways?
Don't you think it's a bit weird and unnecessary to let gorgogs have their own territory with status? Merians sorta makes sense and the Avenger blind eye helps Celest defend them sure, but the gorgogs change just makes is really only screwing over people who want to hunt.

I have an issue with your labeling your views as facts.

Thoros was far more of a threat to Geb as a Mugwump Nihilist, than he is as a demigod Warrior. Why is that so Malarious? During that same time period, you were never a threat to me as a Nihilist and you even had the champion pet to aid you. My point is that there is an element of skill that goes into it and from my point of view you desire changes that will help cover up your lack of such. I am not saying guardians will not need any changes after these racial changes go in or that they did not need some tweaks before, but what I am saying is that your idea of what the problems are with the archetype are generated mainly from your own personal inability to perform well in it. So your views of what is wrong are not the facts, but just that, your views. I am not saying my view on what the archetype needs are the facts either, but then again I am not placing the fact label on my view.

I have to agree. Stavenn centered around demons and OOH SCARY dark stuff and it thrived; the only difference being that it has always packed enough powerhouses (or powerhouse alts) to really work that "giving the finger to the world" angle and still survive. The things I liked on Sintor after first joining Mag:

1. The Engine. The whole philosophy is sweet. Promoting fanatical Engine role-play is awesome. MostlybecauseIamaTzeentchfanatic.

2. Welp... I don't have a 2. I actually liked pre-summit Glomdoring more. Sad isn't it?

Hated:

1. Power laws. Average citizen gets poo. All these other people get whatever they want? Even in Glom I pretty much got to draw my fair share. Especially as a Guardian in Mag I was just weeping tears of powerless blood.

2. Politics. Good God. Kalas wasn't even a Drama Llama family and I felt the burn.

3. People. 2-3 helpfuls, rest aloof and sincerely unhelpful. But it's my arghpee to be aloof and noble! Cram it. Alienates new players.

4. Lack of leadership. If Thoros or Daevos is not on, it seems like noone responds. Not entirely their fault, but I've seen Revan give a call to action that only half the people respond to, whereas if Thoros or Daevos said the same thing people would hop to. Maybe no established chain of command? Is the Legion not as efficient as it should be? I do not know good sirs! Brigade went through a giant overhaul at some point when the previous clan was failing miserably, maybe that's needed?

Just going to take a moment to second these motions. I've made a number of alts in every org, and the ones I make in Mag never last more than a few days before these things start to rear up and make me feel like playing in another org instead.

There is just one part I have to nitpick:

The latest Demon Lord slaying happened around 6:30pm PST / 9:30pm EST. This is not a 3am raid! It is not a morning raid for Americans! It's a raid that happened prime time when most people were already home from work (although I was not. Boo).

Aside of that, I think we can all agree that the latest events have been horrible. I am sure the Admin will never repeat those mistakes again. But you're right, it isn't as if you could have said no to Baalphegar...