Xiel2008-04-29 00:03:03
QUOTE(Celina @ Apr 28 2008, 12:40 AM) 506946
First. No other race is built like Illithoid. None. It's not like they take a hit to influencing to be better at combat. They royally suck at influencing. Their charisma is the the lowest stat in the game. Illdrain takes constant effort to maintain and a sizeable time dedication to inflate. Illithoids can be shattered with ease.
Humans pretty much prosper in any class they choose. Aslaran is useful in numerous guilds. Kephera go both ways(monk, not warrior) and their ego isn't total crap. There are more than "just illithoids" than can go both caster and warrior. And for the record, Illithoid is generally crap for dreamweaving (magic weakness), and telepathy (really bad ego and there are better int races out there). Yeah illithoid would do fine as warrior or caster...but there are much better choices for both. Female Kephera, for one, is a great mage choice.
Don't downplay bards either. Every org has them and they are the single most damaging archetype in this game (the exceptions being artied warriors and maybe high end geomancers). Anyone with a magic weakness is at a severe disadvantage. Not to mention they aren't the only ones that do magic damage. Wiccans and Guardians too. It's a very dominant damage source in Lusternia.
Humans pretty much prosper in any class they choose. Aslaran is useful in numerous guilds. Kephera go both ways(monk, not warrior) and their ego isn't total crap. There are more than "just illithoids" than can go both caster and warrior. And for the record, Illithoid is generally crap for dreamweaving (magic weakness), and telepathy (really bad ego and there are better int races out there). Yeah illithoid would do fine as warrior or caster...but there are much better choices for both. Female Kephera, for one, is a great mage choice.
Don't downplay bards either. Every org has them and they are the single most damaging archetype in this game (the exceptions being artied warriors and maybe high end geomancers). Anyone with a magic weakness is at a severe disadvantage. Not to mention they aren't the only ones that do magic damage. Wiccans and Guardians too. It's a very dominant damage source in Lusternia.
First off, whoever said that they took a hit to influencing to be better at combat? I noted down that they're viable as both a caster and melee class without being a spec race and making it so that they are better at influencing would just push them further out than they already are now.
Next, Humans evolve their stats depending on the class they are, so they change as spec races do to tailor themselves into something for the class that they are. I never wrote down that it'll be 'just illithoid' that can go either caster or warrior, but they're most likely the only one who can accomplish both without changing through evolution or specialization.
Lastly, what's that about downplaying? I noted down what I thought would logically be..that since bards are one of the five archetypes of the game, there would be, at most, 1/5 of the population being bards...still leaving 4/5 who aren't. Unless, of course, everyone went bard, then that could change, but since I doubt that, I'd say 1/5 at max but most likely less currently.
Kaalak2008-04-29 00:07:35
QUOTE(Estarra @ Apr 28 2008, 04:20 PM) 507134
In my opinion, our weighted system makes more sense and is much more easy to balance than artifically assigning a "level" or "category" of buff to every skill that gives you one.
I agree the weighted system makes sense with STR/INT. And I like Tervic's idea of a log scale.
Out of pure curiosity, if a weighted system works here (and I think it does) then why to calculate damage resistance does one have to factor in three independent variables: armour, DMP, and resistances?
Asarnil2008-04-29 00:50:14
QUOTE(Xiel @ Apr 29 2008, 10:33 AM) 507142
First off, whoever said that they took a hit to influencing to be better at combat? I noted down that they're viable as both a caster and melee class without being a spec race and making it so that they are better at influencing would just push them further out than they already are now.
Next, Humans evolve their stats depending on the class they are, so they change as spec races do to tailor themselves into something for the class that they are. I never wrote down that it'll be 'just illithoid' that can go either caster or warrior, but they're most likely the only one who can accomplish both without changing through evolution or specialization.
Lastly, what's that about downplaying? I noted down what I thought would logically be..that since bards are one of the five archetypes of the game, there would be, at most, 1/5 of the population being bards...still leaving 4/5 who aren't. Unless, of course, everyone went bard, then that could change, but since I doubt that, I'd say 1/5 at max but most likely less currently.
Next, Humans evolve their stats depending on the class they are, so they change as spec races do to tailor themselves into something for the class that they are. I never wrote down that it'll be 'just illithoid' that can go either caster or warrior, but they're most likely the only one who can accomplish both without changing through evolution or specialization.
Lastly, what's that about downplaying? I noted down what I thought would logically be..that since bards are one of the five archetypes of the game, there would be, at most, 1/5 of the population being bards...still leaving 4/5 who aren't. Unless, of course, everyone went bard, then that could change, but since I doubt that, I'd say 1/5 at max but most likely less currently.
Judging Illithoid warriors by Sojiro isn't the best idea. As a Liched/Flexed ur'Guard I get 14 Str and 16 Int. I could probably squeeze out another 1 Str if I was Highmagic or herofeted, but thats about it. Any non-lich Illithoid is looking at about 13 Strength, and the only boost to Int would be through an Int blessing, Herofete, Astrology or a Truefavour.
Bashing as an Illithoid sucks though, even while surged - because you just don't have the tanking potential (even in the Undervault) of a Krokani/Orclach/Igasho/Kephera. I do have to admit, they make a better warrior race than Viscanti though.
Revan2008-04-29 00:59:40
alot (and I do mean alot) of Ninjakari are actually going Loboshigaru, which they say is far superior to Illithoid. Considering lobo resists and lvl 3 regen anywhere, and the nice stats, that wouldn't be too far off the mark. Illithoid are playable now, which I'm content with. they're not the greatest race, but they're at least one option now out of many. Human would still trump, i believe... as would Lobo accordng to the others >.>
Ashteru2008-04-29 01:00:33
Aslaran works nicely without sip-penalty!
Xiel2008-04-29 01:33:21
I still think that the changes to Illithoid and Kephera should've went into them being specs rather than a blanket change, but woe for the forum pile up.
Revan2008-04-29 01:45:02
eh, well... I agree that it should be a monk spec. but what can you do? =/
Ildaudid2008-04-29 01:48:46
Since reincarnate into race takes away exp.... is there anyway we can just reset the cameos to work properly? I would much rather only change race 1 time a day with my cameo, rather than not be able to change race at all without losing exp. At 95+ I just don't really want to make up exp for something that I used to be able to do 1 time a day anyways.
Are there any other cameo owners who would mind if they put cameos back to working again?
Are there any other cameo owners who would mind if they put cameos back to working again?
Sahra2008-04-29 03:04:48
I don't understand why they don't just do it like Aetolia did when we redid races there..
We got a full month of free reincarnations without XP loss and we could reincarnate an infinite number of times a day... for this XP loss crap
We got a full month of free reincarnations without XP loss and we could reincarnate an infinite number of times a day... for this XP loss crap
Ildaudid2008-04-29 03:09:56
QUOTE(Sahra @ Apr 28 2008, 11:04 PM) 507184
I don't understand why they don't just do it like Aetolia did when we redid races there..
We got a full month of free reincarnations without XP loss and we could reincarnate an infinite number of times a day... for this XP loss crap
We got a full month of free reincarnations without XP loss and we could reincarnate an infinite number of times a day... for this XP loss crap
Demigods can do that right now. But since some have a useless 1000cr artifact for the test period, some would just like to be able to make it so they can do it only 1 time a IG month like normal. As it stands alot of the higher level folk (especially the ones with cameos) wont change race. Or will change race only 1 time. They know gaining even a % takes a lil bit longer than the level 50 folk. And I can't bypass it with moonchilde like I would do if I was using another construct.
I have been a dwarf since the change, and dont wanna change out of this low dex low PvP wound giving race until I can use the ol' cameo again ^^
So pweeeeeeeeeeeeeease make the cameo normal.... we can always put them in packs to bypass cameos anyways... Thats what we do if we want to use a reincarnation dagger... just put the cameo in a pack and use the dagger. So its not like it would really hurt anyone if the cameo's worked again like normal would it?
Unknown2008-04-29 03:18:44
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 29 2008, 11:18 AM) 507172
Are there any other cameo owners who would mind if they put cameos back to working again?
I already posted saying I wanted my cameo turned back on, went pretty much no where.
Doman2008-04-29 03:37:22
Turn the cameo back to normal. You can drop the cameo before you die if you want to reincarnate.
Daganev2008-04-29 03:40:40
If most warriors can get 20+ str, then most warriors arn't really getting a 60% boost, since 12 str damage, is not the norm....
However, it is important that the 10 str faeling with lvl 3 bonus, isn't always a better option than the 18 str tae'dae with level 3 penalty. And I believe even with current changes, that is still the case.
The scaling has to be done such that both are equally viable.
However, it is important that the 10 str faeling with lvl 3 bonus, isn't always a better option than the 18 str tae'dae with level 3 penalty. And I believe even with current changes, that is still the case.
The scaling has to be done such that both are equally viable.
Xenthos2008-04-29 03:47:11
QUOTE(daganev @ Apr 28 2008, 11:40 PM) 507192
If most warriors can get 20+ str, then most warriors arn't really getting a 60% boost, since 12 str damage, is not the norm....
However, it is important that the 10 str faeling with lvl 3 bonus, isn't always a better option than the 18 str tae'dae with level 3 penalty. And I believe even with current changes, that is still the case.
The scaling has to be done such that both are equally viable.
However, it is important that the 10 str faeling with lvl 3 bonus, isn't always a better option than the 18 str tae'dae with level 3 penalty. And I believe even with current changes, that is still the case.
The scaling has to be done such that both are equally viable.
I don't believe that's even possible. The 10 strength Shadowlord with a level 3 bonus needs to be equally viable with the 15 strength, no penalty Elfen Lord (as well as the 16 strength, no penalty Merian Lord), both of which are pretty much always going to be better than the 18 strength Tae'Dae.
This is because they are specialized races, so I'm trying to figure out why one specialized race needs to be equal to non-specced, while the others are not only allowed to be superior, it's expected of them (see Sojiro's post).
Doman2008-04-29 03:48:48
Maybe tae'dae take hit to str, since it doesn't matter anyway, and get a buff of a sip bonus?
Unknown2008-04-29 03:50:38
The problem seems to be... if we don't weigh stats, people can reach insane levels of damage, etc. But if we do weigh them, races with extreme stats who are heavily penalized in other areas to compensate for them end up being useless.
Hummm. Perhaps Tae'dae, etc. should've has their penalties reduced when weighted stats came into play.
Hummm. Perhaps Tae'dae, etc. should've has their penalties reduced when weighted stats came into play.
Xenthos2008-04-29 03:57:45
QUOTE(Phantom Guido @ Apr 28 2008, 11:50 PM) 507196
The problem seems to be... if we don't weigh stats, people can reach insane levels of damage, etc. But if we do weigh them, races with extreme stats who are heavily penalized in other areas to compensate for them end up being useless.
Hummm.
Hummm.
Well, there is a third option-- instead of 12-20 being +45%, make 12-25 +45%.
12: +4
13: +4
14: +4
15: +3
16: +3
17: +3
18: +3
19: +3
20: +3
21: +3
22: +3
23: +3
24: +3
25: +3
Or something of the sort (the extra +1s could also happen sometime later instead of at the beginning, like at 23/24/25 to make it more worthwhile to get that high). This would have the consequence of nerfing everyone, however (everyone would be dragged downwards unless they are hitting 25 strength/int, those ones remaining pretty much the same as they are now). At the same time, it would make the upper numbers matter more with respect to the lower...
(For some reason, I don't expect most of the people who are looking for strength to matter more at the upper stages than it does to jump on this idea, but it does exist)
Ildaudid2008-04-29 04:04:18
I agree with Xenthos.... spot on
ps: turn ildaudid's cameo back on too please
ps: turn ildaudid's cameo back on too please
Unknown2008-04-29 04:12:05
I'm all about more people being happy with different races, so fixing the strength thing seems like a good idea to me, but I do wonder (and maybe someone would be kind enough to explain this to me), do people want big igasho and Tae and such to have the same overall offense as, say, a faeling, or other races that aren't as tough?
Because that confuses me a little. It doesn't seem to me that the races that are "tough" should be as good offensively as the races that are "not tough". I mean, you have a few big races that have a slew of "toughie advantages", then you have several that don't have those advantages, but are faster (no speed penalty or advantage), and don't have the same disadvantages, and then you have a few (well, three) races that are faster, but have lower con and often other disadvantages.
I'm not saying changes shouldn't happen, because I don't know. But I think if we wind up with a situation where the big races have the same offensive levels as the less tough races, we're just going to go in a big circle to the thing that I hear got the strength stuff changed in the first place.
Because that confuses me a little. It doesn't seem to me that the races that are "tough" should be as good offensively as the races that are "not tough". I mean, you have a few big races that have a slew of "toughie advantages", then you have several that don't have those advantages, but are faster (no speed penalty or advantage), and don't have the same disadvantages, and then you have a few (well, three) races that are faster, but have lower con and often other disadvantages.
I'm not saying changes shouldn't happen, because I don't know. But I think if we wind up with a situation where the big races have the same offensive levels as the less tough races, we're just going to go in a big circle to the thing that I hear got the strength stuff changed in the first place.
Unknown2008-04-29 04:14:48
QUOTE(Rainydays @ Apr 29 2008, 12:12 AM) 507201
I'm all about more people being happy with different races, so fixing the strength thing seems like a good idea to me, but I do wonder (and maybe someone would be kind enough to explain this to me), do people want big igasho and Tae and such to have the same overall offense as, say, a faeling, or other races that aren't as tough?
Ask Sojiro about the testing he and Rutharr (tae'dae) did.
It was very, very sad.