To be clear, you mean the wounding numbers. Lunge/sweep/crush/assault do not effect damage.

Indeed. I clarified it above as Ashteru complained.

Commented, I didn't complain.

well my mage now has to hit everything at least once more for a kill which makes me sad but maybe the changes will be for the best...

I only mentioned buffing up the general warrior damage, IN EXCHANGE OF, getting rid of the +10 runes from forging, and the +10 from nightkiss/drawdown.

i.e., runes might give +5% speed increase, or give armor resistance to lightning/fire/cold while drawdown/nightkiss might give a +5% chance to hit or a +2% chance to crit damage, or maybe just extra wounds.

etc etc.

This is all assuming that the statement that artifact runes are the "problem"

There is something funny thing about the base that you keep mentioning. I can take a normal greatsword and bashing katana, and defeat 90% of the population with relative ease. These are weapons that have no artifacts on them once so ever. I do it a lot of times to demonstrate what is possible with normal weapons. So what should that base be, when there are those people who can take normal weapons and wipe out the majority of the base? Then on the other end, there are those with very high end weapons, and I could defeat them as a non-demi warrior, demi warrior, mage, and monk. There have been changes, but there are still examples of people who are defeating those high end weapon carrying warriors as cloth wearers. Heck, you have the helm, which is more powerful than the entire set of weapon artifacts a person can purchase, and I could point out cloth wearers that would take you out.

So, my point is what do we make these changes based on? Do we base them on what the best can do, or do we base them on what the mulling masses can do?

Balance at the top! After you do that, balancing at the bottom is a process called "learning".

I would maybe fight Geb if I could drop choke on him.

Geb actually abused luxi for about a week straight, and now Gebtronics is infallible in choke.

Yeah. I can start at 15 and get up to 18, higher with other stuff. I'll see if I can grab Rika or someone who will hold still long enough. I've only got a 360 dmg waraxe, though. Haven't gotten around to making any other weapons.




Wait. If warriors effectively need great runes to be on par with other classes, then why are they a problem?

Also, it should probably be noted that the people complaining about warrior damage are largely people who're of a much lower level than the warriors who've gained infamy as being 'broken'

Did he really? Damn, choke is like the one thing I'm good at.

This is a hugely difficult question. Ideally, the elusive 'balance' would be when two exceptionally skilled combatants approach a draw or stalemate. However, exceptionally skilled combatants are somewhat rare. I'm sure you know that in the past some skillsets that were thought of as weak or subpar almost over night were considered overpowered when suddenly in the hands of an exceptional combatant. Thus, balancing damage based on the "masses" does not necessarily work when the exceptional combatant can wipe the floor with most people, irregardless of whether they have forging runes, champion helms or drawdown/nightkiss. Xenthos may be mediocre in combat (not saying that's true, just an example) and thinks that the so-called outliers need to be curved in because he finds himself overpowered by warriors. But it could just be that those he fights are more skilled than he is and so blunting the outliers and nerfing forging runes, champion helms or drawdown/nightkiss may be exactly the wrong thing to do.

Thus, I like to see the feedback from players on these latest changes. And, yes, I do listen carefully to what exceptionally skilled combatants like yourself have to say!

Well, your argument is a bit flawed, but I do see your point. However...no amount of "skill" give the kind of wounds your katana dish out. The issue being addressed here isn't skill. People should be given the basics of a balanced class, and figure out how to be effective with it. I know you think I suck, but I know I proved more than proficient as a Geomancer. Skill had nothing to do with 1 hit slit throats and 2 hit tendons. I could fight someone like Forren, no I wouldn't win, but there was a fight involved. Hell, I even made him run in 1v1 fights on occasion. Now take Desitrus. The first hit did 2k and a stun that lasted until he could hit again. The second hit, to a totally seperate body part give me a slit throat with slickness along with another 2k damage. There is no fight. There is no skill involved. It was *swing pointy object* *win*.

As Geb said, it is possible to be effective with non-runed weapons (the stat ones especially generally work to "restore" stats that get tempered off so that runes can be put on them). Those weapons are pretty tough to get as well, and once gotten generally do get tempered/runed just so that they don't end up "disappearing".

The other runes (elemental & wounding) on top of that make a huge difference, though... and the +15 stat runes usually do bring the weapon above where it started as well.


I'll agree that I'm not the best combatant in the game (or even competing for it). That said, I do consider myself to be in the outliers range now with wounding at least-- Demigod, Champ Helm, and +10% wounding and the +10s on my weapons have given me heavy wounding on the first combo with no lunges, or heavy in one lunge on robe targets.

The funny part is as a mage I fought against people who gave out more wounding against me than I do to people with my katana, and still defeated them. Heck, I even defeated arty warriors standing outside of my demesne, and they were doing more than 2k damage a combo to me with damage weapons or more than 2k wounds per combo to me using wouding weapons. Oh, and I remember your complaints about Forren and mindblast, so I suggest you not act like you were not complaining after he dusted you with very little effort.

Now the problem with Desitrus and his attack was the fact that he was able to hit you again via stun. That could be done by anyone with his weapon's speed against someone your size, and it would also be possible to slit-lock you before you cured out of stun too. In that situation, the main problem is stun. If a person without that ability hits another without stun for that amount, the person always has the options to hinder, move away, and sip all immediately after the attack (unless slit-locked).

Now if you want a demonstration of how it is possible to defeat a person using mundane weapons, hit me up for a spar or duel anytime. I am more than willing to show you what I mean.

What about the bashing balance! It's never going to balanced just because that's the basis of different classes, but at least the speed should be closer. Right now, if you take away all skills, including DMP, extra health, subsequent abilities that may be used and you compare everyone's basic attacks, it's blatantly in favor of Warriors and monks at the top. Followed by Bards since a base no bonus race increases in speed when they raise their instrument level. And then Mages, druids, guardians, wiccans are all far behind. It's a big gap that was only even close to on par (yet was still under par) by the Mugwump level 3 equilibrium bonus. This is also completely ignoring that they're a weak race on their own with the 10 constitution.

I have a idea: maybe it's because we can MISS, and you CAN'T.

I'm wondering if you can actually post without that annoying God complex. Again, flawed argument. You were a mage long before DMP and weighted stats. You staffed people to death, which is just not a viable tactic anymore. You were artied. You even had the champ staff. Stop trying to play yourself off as some feeble mage that overcame the odds. You were also a monk when monks could stack balance loss and stun...which you took full advantage of. I suggest you pull that attitude of yours into check, because it's really not cute. I fought Forren in Celest one on one, for some time before his reinforcements showed up. I held him off and he even had to move rooms (no, it was not fear). You, just in case you missed it, do not know everything about me.

The stun was only one issue. The wounds and damage are an issue. Tell me, how am I going to win if I have to leave after every attack?

And again, tone down the arrogance. I never disagreed with you about your point. I merely stated that "skill" dosen't come into play against the high end warriors, which is my opinion. Maybe you think being able to two shot 75% of the basin is skill. You are entitled to whatever you want to think.

"Back in my day" posts really have no place here.

I would fight Geb anytime anyplace. I actually love fighting Geb, because he not only is a good combatant. He tells me what things I am doing right and what things I am doing wrong and how to better myself in them. It isn't about org vs org to him, it is what a real player is truly looking for.... 1v1 combat at its purest.... the fun of the fight... not the zerg of the rush.





You are so dead on with this. skilled does not mean "equal to might". I have fought people like Torak who would have only been 30% of my might, yet the skill in which they fought in thier chosen class would bypass someone 200% of their own might.


The idea that Geb brought up though about the helm is something that if not changed, should be addressed in this manor possibly.

Just like a CL cannot lay claim to champion of their respected guild, maybe an an Ascendant/Demi/Titan not be able to lay claim to the Champion of their guild. It is possible to curb down some of the strength of the highest end by not rewarding them with an artifact as powerful as the GC's end up with, without breaking your stance on the whole Helm issue (which you have upheld for a while now)

above edited to include demigods/titans as well until I get a chance to ask xenthos and shuyin what the ascendancy skill consists of (I was told it might not have many beneficial skills that would aid a warrior with wounding/damage)

This is not to say Shuyin and Xenthos are bad Champions, but it would make it so people in both guilds could contest and not have to worry about competing against an Ascendant who obviously would already start off in a position of great respect and admiration. And allow "new blood" or others to be able to thin out the helms in terms of the whole stacking a helm on top of an ascended player. (Just an idea I am throwing out there)

I'll do it with a bashing axe too, if that's your question. My guess would be that you're not a tailor, don't have trans resilience, don't have trans combat and your system probably isn't up to snuff. I offer the same thing geb does to unruned/non-demi people who want a shot without runes. My guess would be that without all of the above, the result will be the same as me using runes though, since 40-50% cut/blunt is really nothing. I was considered top tier long before I runed up. I did it as a blacktalon, ebonguard, nihilist, tahtetso, and paladin. I even sleeplocked Ildaudid through champion shrugs with a horribly broken (in the bad way) fetish.