Can you remove the XP lost, like with demigod reincarnating, then?

Yeah, Please just make it so everyone can reincarnate like demigods. I basically lost my artifact for a week, AND have to lose xp if I want to test

Estarra,

The point was that intelligence currently makes very little difference in damage (and if people want to argue the same for strength, more power to them! I think having a +10 higher intelligence score should mean a -lot-). Therefore, my argument is that if we exclude intelligence (or at least give it very little weight) in racial comparisons, I think it’s difficult to feasibly argue that Master Viscanti is nothing short of superior in combat.

Imperial Merian Vs. Master Viscanti

10 constitution vs. 14 constitution

L2 Asphyxia Resistance vs. L2 magic/cutting/blunt and L1 poison

L2 water regen vs. L3 taint regen

dive/waterbreathe vs. poison gas/poison gas immunity (everyone can learn to dive and get a waterbreathe enchantment)

L1 equilibrium bonus (reduced) vs. base equilibrium (given there is a 4% difference between L1/base)

L2 fire/electric penalty vs. L2 sipping penalty (reduced)

======+======

The reason this wasn’t brought up earlier is because no one has been able to effectively/feasibly test various races back-to-back-to-back for intelligence and maintain consistency in all other variables (max health, resistances, etc).

And... I’m basically saying that I think the Master Viscanti buffs were either not needed or Imperial Merian needs buffed (which might come in the form of making intelligence matter again) to be on par.

As it stands, we’ve shifted from one extreme to another. Speed is now moot (4% per level of equilibrium bonus). Intelligence is largely moot... so what matters in combat? Resistances and constitution. As Master Viscanti has a good share of both of these, it’s a lot better than races that do not.

Arrr! I found it. Bloody hard, it wasn't named at all how I was expecting it. Anyways: Announce news 907, when it is discussing how damage is being calculated based on the curve-- it says Int/Dex is being calculated at 12 for damage, Str at 14. As we're talking about the damage aspect...

When was that changed, anyways?

ANNOUNCE NEWS #907
Date: 9/12/2007 at 2:08
From: Morgfyre, the Legion
To : Everyone
Subj: Damage Bonuses

We've expanded the damage weighting system into damage buffs now as
well, almost without exception. The change that will affect most
Lusternians is that the affects of your stats on damage has been
integrated into this weighted system.

Summarily, you can expect the following:
+ If you have Strength below 14, expect an increase in your damage
+ If you have Int or Dex below 12, expect an increase in your damage
+ If you have stats above those, expect a decrease in your damage

As this (combined with the resistances) results in a significant change
to how damage is calculated, we may be revisiting damage after
observation for some modification where necessary.

Penned by My hand on the 1st of Estar, in the year 186 CE.


(posted so we all dont have to go find it)

edit - So basically Talkan if you want int changed to be stronger for giving damage, we would need to do the same with strength and dex correct?

Maybe an announce should be made in Game about going onto the forums to discuss all this, since some people never use them.

Or just bump it all back up to 14.

Wasn't that already done? (Announce 1069)

There was an announce about the test server, but I didn't think it mentioned the forums...

READNEWS ANNOUNCE 1069 (the most recent one). When they finished making all the racial stuff live.

Ignore me then!

If the curve begins a 12, then what's the point of me being an Orclach having 15 base str, +1 from Geburah +2 from flex to get up to 18, or Ashteru being a Demigod taedae with base of 20? If the 6-8 point difference doesn't really make even a moderate difference in damage, then why should players bother picking high strength races other than the fact that they also include resistances and/or regeneration?

There isn't a reason to pick them. Trill will do basically the same damage as a demigod orclach

There is a difference, it is just not as significant as it once was. Which leads people to go ahead and choose races that may have better advantages instead of just high str/dex/int or what have ya.

I would choose orclach not because of the str, but because of the resistances. Tae'dae for the same thing.

Now when str mattered more, and you could claim up to 22-24 str as a warrior, of course it would be wise to go with a high str race. Now it is better to look for high con, and advantages not high strength anymore. But it has been this way for 6-7 months now though.

I suppose, but the Trill won't absorb physical (and to some extent magic damage) damage as well as the Orclach, but the Trill will be less prone to mana drain kills.

I guess my point is that Orclach, Loboshigaru, Krokani, Igasho, Tae'dae, Taurian, you take one look at them and it's completely obvious that they excel in being physical fighters who deal a large amount of damage. The only two physical classes are monks and warriors, while the rest of the population is a caster. As characters gain more skills and levels, they gain access to stat increasing abilities. But again, what's the point of choosing a beatstick when the scaling levels off after 12. From what I'm seeing, warriors are supposed to just be afflicters, and the only races that can rapidly stack afflictions and wounds are those with lower str/con but higher balance. It's like there's no point in being a damage whore if you're not level 90+ or fighting someone who's 20 or more levels lower than you.

After the changes that are being made to balance advantages/penalties, the higher strength races still lose out because their extremely high stats are worth so little when compared to the fact that the faster races will always have more chances to apply damage, wounds, and poisons.


*Edit*
Scaling levels off at 12, not 14. Fix'd.

A question most warriors who know the fact have been asking for the last few IG years, I assure you.



Talkan made some good calculations, and they should clearly be pondered. However, until recently Mugwump Narsrim could not only manage a INT 19 character, but do so with a pre-nerf level 3 equilbrium bonus. Upon that, would no doubt be a 15% magic damage rune. When you start stacking bonuses like that, I wonder if the low Cosmicfire damage you post on isn't due to how OP that would become. In a way, reducing the effect of balance/eq bonuses was a masterstroke, in that warriors and guardians can be rebalanced to include better potentials for damage dealing. In that respect, I understand where Talkan is coming from, in desiring to be able to kill with damage.

However, by no means is simple INT-based damage the only reason to have INT. At Level 92, a single additional point of Constitution is worth 276 additional health. I imagine the same goes for mana, though I have no reliable way to test it at the moment. I imagine three points of INT will be worth over 800 mana, by that token. Not only that, but an Imperial Merian will not carry any sip penalty, AND be more likely to find a watery area than a Viscanti could be likely to find a tainted one. (Do Merians need shallow, clear water to regenerate? Or just any water.) As a warrior, I can think of at least three situations in which a Merian would greatly appreciate the ability to maintain high mana levels and regeneration. I'm certain that you can think of more. It's like a combination str/con attribute for PVP, which is why low mana warriors are injured by having low mana, at least as much as Imperial Merians are harmed by their low CON score.

Without highlighting things like vastly superior Charisma on the part of the Merian, it seems like Viscanti were buffed "over" Merians. Yet the truth is that, without the changes, Viscanti were relatively unplayable excepting RP, and certain players with other advantages. By contrast, Merians remained one of the more popular races in Celest. I shouldn't have to outline exactly how bad the situation was for Viscanti before the current changes were being considered, as it should be a matter of public record.

Did you not read the announce last September though Bashara? I mean this isn't a new thing. The only new part about it is that the +eq/bal races have been made a little bit slower, the -eq/bal ones a little faster.

For the sake of argument talkans numbers are established as basic lines to check for damage.
Note it is 100% magic damage, which means draconis, halo, magic, and such will all reduce damage taken. The actual damage before defenses is higher.

I have heard some odd things... Illithoid Nihilist has alot of health and decent int. Faeling Nihilist is an excellent basher (lowish con but putre drain is low and sip bonus means really nice sipping back) and no weakness. From my testing Tae'Dae and Viscanti werent bad races for bashing either. Most all races can be good at bashing for us, they just arent combat viable.

EDIT: Yes I was saying cosmicfire would have actually hurt more than symbol. Symbol is a bashing attack thats about it.

Dwarves could probably use a couple more dex, same for igasho and orclach. We've been testing the spec races and while they are accurate, you can't get the actual wounds worth a hoot with that kind of dex. If not actual dexterity, perhaps add "increased chance to get specialized wounds" to the spec for the race?

I'm talking 8% affliction rate on a "light" (one hit for me) wound. Pretty bad for non demis with 10 dex as dwarf.

Alright, because I never did get the chance to test equilibrium speed on the live game because I'm never that rich, I finally got around to performing some tests for bards in regards to their use of Flare or Fascinate. With my experiments, I've found that the only possible way to be able to use a skill as intended would be to become a mugwump (especially a mugwump currently since the changes have all gone in now) who could actually do Fascinate/Fascinate on a 2.2 second EQ to bypass someone eating faeleaf immediately after the first sixth sense was stripped. This race, currently, is the only one capable of actually using two Glamours skills as intended because they regain EQ faster than the 2.6 seconds it takes for sixth sense to go back up. As a Merian with a level 1 EQ bonus, I tried the same thing and found that I could not use the skill as intended because of the fact that I regained EQ back exactly at 2.6 seconds, therefore I strip sixth sense again instead of actually having my skill go through. Any other race with no EQ bonus/penalty does this at 2.8 seconds, and are even more out of the contention for using the skills as they should be. Therefore, the proposition is made so that sixth sense be slowed down by an additional .4 - .5 seconds before going back up from eating faeleaf because I don't believe it's really fair that to use a skill to bypass a defense is only made feasible by a single race.

Also, noting this down here since I'm not exactly sure if this would go here or on the envoy report. Also, do we use our actual envoy slots to suggest the minor changes the guilds need for this racial rebalancing thing, or am I just sticking this on an extra slot for April's Envoy report or am I just messaging someone directly about this or what?