Live Racial Testing

by Doman

Back to Common Grounds.

Krellan2008-05-11 17:51:55
You should get bonuses too. That implies that the bonuses have been reduced in effect to a similar manner that the penalties have.
Xenthos2008-05-11 19:37:14
QUOTE(Xenthos @ May 9 2008, 07:42 PM) 510441
So, back to Live Racial Testing.

Elfen Lord versus Shadowlord.

I'm not entirely sure what you want. I've done testing of the numbers, I've gathered them, I've posted them for you. There is nothing theoretical about what I've posted. There is a significant imbalance in wounding/damage over time, which is not countered by the extra affliction speed due to the fact that afflictions are based on that very wounding.

Higher strength races should have more damage/wounding over time than lower strength but higher speed races. The difference should not be as large as it is. There is a +15% speed bonus for level 3 balance, and a +25% damage/wounding bonus for 13->18 strength. Simply tightening the curve so it's a +20% bonus for that range, *or* adding 1 strength to Shadowlords, fixes the issue. There will still be a higher damage/wounding over time for the higher strength races.

I really don't care if it's hardcoded so that Shadowlord Demigods only get +1 strength. I'm fine with my 15. However, non-Demi Shadowlords do need to be pulled up due to both the loss of speed and the larger effect of strength. The affliction rate has been significantly lowered even if the strength is pulled up.

As it's now Sunday and there still has been no comment whatsoever... you have 1) Reduced the speed of Shadowlords (which was necessary affliction-wise), and 2) Made lower strength more of a liability than it was. These two things, in combination, lead to the effect I described earlier. The numbers have been posted. Even if the curve is tightened or non-Demi Shadowlords are given +1 strength, they will still be slower than they were. They will just be closer to competitive in terms of damage/wounding over time, though still a bit behind (which is needed, due to faster afflictions over time).

Once again, the numbers are posted above. It's been tested, it's been reviewed, and I'm really not sure why it's just being ignored. I really don't care if the addition doesn't help Demigod Shadowlords, but the race, pre-Demigod, is not as competitive against Elfen/Merian Lords as it was, and is now a fair bit behind. This really needs to be rectified.
Unknown2008-05-11 19:59:58
I like the changes that have been made, but is reincarnations still free?
Silvanus2008-05-11 20:22:45
Yes.
Daganev2008-05-11 22:14:55
QUOTE(Xenthos @ May 11 2008, 12:37 PM) 511042
As it's now Sunday and there still has been no comment whatsoever... you have 1) Reduced the speed of Shadowlords (which was necessary affliction-wise), and 2) Made lower strength more of a liability than it was. These two things, in combination, lead to the effect I described earlier. The numbers have been posted. Even if the curve is tightened or non-Demi Shadowlords are given +1 strength, they will still be slower than they were. They will just be closer to competitive in terms of damage/wounding over time, though still a bit behind (which is needed, due to faster afflictions over time).

Once again, the numbers are posted above. It's been tested, it's been reviewed, and I'm really not sure why it's just being ignored. I really don't care if the addition doesn't help Demigod Shadowlords, but the race, pre-Demigod, is not as competitive against Elfen/Merian Lords as it was, and is now a fair bit behind. This really needs to be rectified.



Whats the sollution for this?
Xenthos2008-05-11 22:36:38
QUOTE(daganev @ May 11 2008, 06:14 PM) 511051
Whats the sollution for this?

It's in the thing you quoted.

1) Tighten the curve between 13 and 18 strength to be a +20% increase instead of the +25%.
or
2) Give Shadowlords +1 strength.
2a) If the concern is about giving another strength back to Shadowlord Demigods, then just make it so that Shadowlord Demigods only get +1 str instead of the +2 they get for all other stats.

Two is the easiest of the solutions.
Shamarah2008-05-11 22:38:38
QUOTE(Xenthos @ May 11 2008, 06:36 PM) 511054
2a) If the concern is about giving another strength back to Shadowlord Demigods, then just make it so that Shadowlord Demigods only get +1 str instead of the +2 they get for all other stats.


Just a comment that I can't possibly see the admin accepting something as random and arbitrary as this.
Daganev2008-05-11 22:39:28
shadowlords +1 str,or Faelings +1 str?
Xenthos2008-05-11 22:41:29
QUOTE(Shamarah @ May 11 2008, 06:38 PM) 511055
Just a comment that I can't possibly see the admin accepting something as random and arbitrary as this.

Random and arbitrary? The only reason I can see for the refusal to even discuss the numbers is that there was a concern that Shadowlord Demigods with 16 strength normally were "too powerful". Demigods lost 1 point to all stats in large part due to those posts. Giving base Shadowlords +1 strength to bring them back in line with Elfen Lords would also have the effect of countering the -1 Demigod stat, so... if that's the concern, I'm willing to keep Demigod Shadowlords at 15 strength, but base Shadowlords do need to get pulled up.
Xenthos2008-05-11 22:42:11
QUOTE(daganev @ May 11 2008, 06:39 PM) 511056
shadowlords +1 str,or Faelings +1 str?

Doesn't really matter to me either way, but it's seeming more likely that it would be accepted as part of the Shadowlord spec so it doesn't also modify Monks.
Unknown2008-05-11 23:41:40
@Xenthos: Shadowlord Faelings must not have it so terrible as you state, or else I'd expect to hear others chiming in left and right supporting the change(s) you've been repeating again and again.

beatdeadhorse.gif
Xenthos2008-05-12 00:05:13
QUOTE(Zarquan @ May 11 2008, 07:41 PM) 511060
@Xenthos: Shadowlord Faelings must not have it so terrible as you state, or else I'd expect to hear others chiming in left and right supporting the change(s) you've been repeating again and again.

beatdeadhorse.gif

Actually, that would likely be better explained by the fact that there aren't really any active Shadowlord Faeling (non-Demigods) at the moment. For good reason, it seems.

Only one we've got with any fighting experience at all is Pentu, who is mostly inactive these days.

Pardon me for looking for balance with a racial specialization that has no representation... but I think I'll keep asking anyways, because it is an issue. Just look at the numbers.
Silvanus2008-05-12 01:36:19
Are Master Viscanti Geos fixed yet?
Eventru2008-05-12 02:23:45
Yes, I'm told the bug fix were brought over this afternoon, Silvanus.
Doman2008-05-12 02:27:43
Eventru, with his hand on the pulse
Shiri2008-05-12 02:31:39
+1 strength for Shadowlords wouldn't be unreasonable, and it'd be better than fiddling with the formulae for other races too.
Ildaudid2008-05-12 02:34:33
I agree with Shiri and Xenny.... SLord Faelings need to have something done.... honestly compared to an Elfen Lord they look like a joke race.

So +1 str at the very least would not be unreasonable at all to ask for.


Xenthos2008-05-12 03:56:20
QUOTE(Lusternia)
Thank you everyone for your input during this period of racial testing.
We've made many tweaks and adjustments, and have added several new
abilities. At this time, we feel the races are fairly well balanced,
though we may be asking the envoys to look certain repercussions of
these racial changes. So onwards drinking dwarves! And huzzah to the
wild elfen and irontongued viscanti!

If you aren't happy with your race, you have one more reincarnation to
use. Be sure to use your last reincarnation wisely!

So... really, I'm pretty frustrated at this point. There was no dialogue whatsoever, and we've been told that there is 'something' which counters the numbers posted above. However, that has not been discussed, nor is it clear. It has been suggested that it is the racial Flight ability, but that seems unlikely.

When warriors are completely based upon wounding, having a wounding/damage-over-time this much lower than counterparts is a nasty effect which very much hampers the race when compared to other specializations. I'd really appreciate an actual discussion on it, especially as there *is* support for actually fixing the imbalance.
Daganev2008-05-12 16:29:04
QUOTE(Zarquan @ May 11 2008, 04:41 PM) 511060
@Xenthos: Shadowlord Faelings must not have it so terrible as you state, or else I'd expect to hear others chiming in left and right supporting the change(s) you've been repeating again and again.

beatdeadhorse.gif


Or.... Most people just don't want to see shadowlords balance because they feel they were op before, and they like seeing them as being Underpowered now.

Personally, I didn't chime in before because Xenthos's post looked so straight forward to me, that I thought they were just going to go ahead and fix it.
Xenthos2008-05-12 17:44:14
QUOTE(daganev @ May 12 2008, 12:29 PM) 511346
Or.... Most people just don't want to see shadowlords balance because they feel they were op before, and they like seeing them as being Underpowered now.

Personally, I didn't chime in before because Xenthos's post looked so straight forward to me, that I thought they were just going to go ahead and fix it.

I did too, to be honest.

I'm still feeling really let down by the complete lack of discussion / response.