Ildaudid2008-05-01 00:03:58
I thought lightning was still broken and didn't end up add but like .0000005 second a swing. Did they get it up more? So like a 290 speed axe would be 10% faster or is there a ceiling for it?
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
Desitrus2008-05-01 00:16:28
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 30 2008, 07:03 PM) 507870
I thought lightning was still broken and didn't end up add but like .0000005 second a swing. Did they get it up more? So like a 290 speed axe would be 10% faster or is there a ceiling for it?
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
yourmothergotinbedwiththatnerf
Ildaudid2008-05-01 01:33:33
QUOTE(Desitrus @ Apr 30 2008, 08:16 PM) 507872
yourmothergotinbedwiththatnerf
dependsonwhichmotherhelliwouldgetinbedwithildaudidsmother
Estarra2008-05-01 03:41:27
QUOTE(geb @ Apr 30 2008, 02:05 PM) 507783
Ok, now that I have responded to some of your points, I will add a few ideas on how I think the problem can be resolved.
1. I think magic should be changed to a general resistance skill that covers magic, electric, fire, and cold resists. Once the person transcends this skill-set, the person would have 15% reduction in damage to all of those damage types. This change would be fair for two reasons. One is that a person can acquire a skill to reduce the effect elemental runes have on their person (damage wise). The second effect is that it would require that person to spend credits to transcend the skill-set for its greatest effect; therefore the person has to pay a price in credits to reduce the damage that a person paid a price in credits to increase. With the addition of proofs, a person transcendent in the new skill can have a straight resistance of 25-35% against the elemental aspect of a warriors attack. That is equal to having a 70 on robes versus cutting/blunt, but this is versus elemental attacks. Keep in mind that Desitrus has pointed out that he has no stat runes on his waraxe, giving more credence to my claim that elemental runes are the main culprit in boosting damage.
2. I agree that stun needs to be looked at. I would suggest that stun not be able to go beyond a 2 second max for axlords and a 1 second max for bonecrushers/monks, regardless of the race. Stun is the most powerful affliction there is in my opinion. Being able to delay the curing and actions of a person for a solid 2 seconds for axelords and 1 second for bonecrushers/monks in my opinion is enough time to get ahead, if the attacker takes good advantage of it. I believe other concessions will also have to be made concerning skills that entangle too, so that the advantage does not wholly go to those who use passive and active entanglements to hinder warriors/monks.
3. There is already a mechanizim that would allow warriors to concentrate on going for wounds, speed, defense, and damage. Each of them are called in order of effect mentioned earlier concentrated, lightning, defensive, and aggressive. Each combatstyle already have built into them benefits and drawbacks which I will show below:
a. Concentrated - Choosing a concentrated fighting style will increase your chance to wound an opponent, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
b. Lightning- Choosing a lightning fighting style will increase the speed of your attacks, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
c. Aggressive- Choosing an aggressive fighting style will lessen the effectiveness of your combat stance while increasing the power of your attacks.
d. Choosing a defensive fighting style will increase the effectiveness of your combat stance while decreasing the effectiveness of your attacks.
Now there is a problem with these combatstyle, and the problem is that only two are actually worth using (Lightning and Defensive). What I suggest is first adjust these styles to be more focused on their aspect of combat boost (i.e. more effective in what they boost), while also having a greater effect in what they are suppose to cause a deficiency in. First, I suggest changing their effects a little bit to make them more balanced for overall warrior combat. So here we go:
a. Concentrated- Would not be changed in effect, but in magnitude. The increase in wounding would actually become significant (+10%), while the decrease in damage would do likewise (-%10).
b. Lightning- I would suggest boosting the effect this has from having a 10% boost in speed, to a 15% boost. I would also suggest having it reduce damage by 7.5% and adding in a component that reduces the wounding done by 7.5%.
c. Aggressive- I would make this the reverse of the Concentrated combatstyle, such that it would boost damage by 10% while decreasing wounds by 10%.
d. Defensive – Would keep the same power it has against other warriors, but it would also receive %10 resistance (not dmp) against elemental and magic attacks (not physical). It would take a hit in damage (5%), speed (5%) and wounding (5%)
Well, above are my suggested changes that I hope would help balance out warriors, without hamstringing them.
1. I think magic should be changed to a general resistance skill that covers magic, electric, fire, and cold resists. Once the person transcends this skill-set, the person would have 15% reduction in damage to all of those damage types. This change would be fair for two reasons. One is that a person can acquire a skill to reduce the effect elemental runes have on their person (damage wise). The second effect is that it would require that person to spend credits to transcend the skill-set for its greatest effect; therefore the person has to pay a price in credits to reduce the damage that a person paid a price in credits to increase. With the addition of proofs, a person transcendent in the new skill can have a straight resistance of 25-35% against the elemental aspect of a warriors attack. That is equal to having a 70 on robes versus cutting/blunt, but this is versus elemental attacks. Keep in mind that Desitrus has pointed out that he has no stat runes on his waraxe, giving more credence to my claim that elemental runes are the main culprit in boosting damage.
2. I agree that stun needs to be looked at. I would suggest that stun not be able to go beyond a 2 second max for axlords and a 1 second max for bonecrushers/monks, regardless of the race. Stun is the most powerful affliction there is in my opinion. Being able to delay the curing and actions of a person for a solid 2 seconds for axelords and 1 second for bonecrushers/monks in my opinion is enough time to get ahead, if the attacker takes good advantage of it. I believe other concessions will also have to be made concerning skills that entangle too, so that the advantage does not wholly go to those who use passive and active entanglements to hinder warriors/monks.
3. There is already a mechanizim that would allow warriors to concentrate on going for wounds, speed, defense, and damage. Each of them are called in order of effect mentioned earlier concentrated, lightning, defensive, and aggressive. Each combatstyle already have built into them benefits and drawbacks which I will show below:
a. Concentrated - Choosing a concentrated fighting style will increase your chance to wound an opponent, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
b. Lightning- Choosing a lightning fighting style will increase the speed of your attacks, while decreasing the amount of damage of your attacks.
c. Aggressive- Choosing an aggressive fighting style will lessen the effectiveness of your combat stance while increasing the power of your attacks.
d. Choosing a defensive fighting style will increase the effectiveness of your combat stance while decreasing the effectiveness of your attacks.
Now there is a problem with these combatstyle, and the problem is that only two are actually worth using (Lightning and Defensive). What I suggest is first adjust these styles to be more focused on their aspect of combat boost (i.e. more effective in what they boost), while also having a greater effect in what they are suppose to cause a deficiency in. First, I suggest changing their effects a little bit to make them more balanced for overall warrior combat. So here we go:
a. Concentrated- Would not be changed in effect, but in magnitude. The increase in wounding would actually become significant (+10%), while the decrease in damage would do likewise (-%10).
b. Lightning- I would suggest boosting the effect this has from having a 10% boost in speed, to a 15% boost. I would also suggest having it reduce damage by 7.5% and adding in a component that reduces the wounding done by 7.5%.
c. Aggressive- I would make this the reverse of the Concentrated combatstyle, such that it would boost damage by 10% while decreasing wounds by 10%.
d. Defensive – Would keep the same power it has against other warriors, but it would also receive %10 resistance (not dmp) against elemental and magic attacks (not physical). It would take a hit in damage (5%), speed (5%) and wounding (5%)
Well, above are my suggested changes that I hope would help balance out warriors, without hamstringing them.
I find this an interesting proposal. However, regarding size, we definitely want size to matter and have some impact. I think the writhing and stun makes sense; however, I understand your point on why it makes combat more difficult to balance. Being that we would never wipe away all effects from size without something in return, how else can size be of benefit at the low and high ends? Just throwing this question out there.
Doman2008-05-01 03:44:40
Hmm, maybe it's easier to hit the right place on a big guy, but they get a small reduction in wounds.
Like, It's easier to hit a tae'dae in the arm than a faeling, but the Tae'dae's skin is going to be thicker
(this is not increasing chance to miss the hit, just to miss the specific body part)
Like, It's easier to hit a tae'dae in the arm than a faeling, but the Tae'dae's skin is going to be thicker
(this is not increasing chance to miss the hit, just to miss the specific body part)
Malarious2008-05-01 08:48:03
QUOTE(Ildaudid @ Apr 30 2008, 08:03 PM) 507870
I thought lightning was still broken and didn't end up add but like .0000005 second a swing. Did they get it up more? So like a 290 speed axe would be 10% faster or is there a ceiling for it?
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
I really agree with the stance theories you stated. It would definately help out warriors overall. And give them a reason to want to switch from combat style defensive.
BC stun changes and AL stun changes I could get behind if they are willing to work on the entanglement issues as well. And I really doubt the "entangler guilds" aka Nihilists, etc are gonna be too willing to get in bed with that nerf. So until I see that happen I will have to stick with the way stuns are now.
I wouldnt mind entangles losing some effect if we could do better without them. 5p wrack not needing entangle please? or a way to entangle quickly right before hand they wont cure out of right off.
SLowing down mugwumps has already kind of killed our entangles rather well :/
As for Geb, glad he posted. I was saying dex should have some bearing on wounds delivered as well. But changing combatstyle is one change that would help, so would capping stuns. In fact stuns are one of the biggest issues, but the goal fo rhte str and dex stuff was to make damage warrior viable and give people a reason to use high str low dex races.
Bashara2008-05-01 21:20:41
Combatstyle tests:
-Concentrated adds a +15 wounding, regardless of precision stat.
-Agressive: Adds NO damage or extra wounding.
-Defensive: Deals same amount of damage as no specified combatstyle, but reduces wounds by 15.
This is just basic testing, once I hit the point where I discovered that Aggressive was apparently not adding ANY extra damage, I became slightly hacked off and decided to blow off steam by smashing some skulls in
Plus, that Karmic Blessing of War has only seen about 4 hours of work so far, and there's only 10 hours left.
CODE
Bashara: lvl 78, 18 Str, 11 Dex, Blessing of War.
Urazial: lvl 81, 65.65 robes proofed, Trans Tailor, Mythical Resilience.
***Wound Tests***
Greataxe:
-Rregular: 1123
-Concentrated: 1138
-Defensive: 1123
Waraxe:
-regular: 705
-Concentrated: 720
-Defensive: 705
***Damage tests***
Waraxe:
-none: 1346
-aggro: 1346
-conc: 1287
-light: 1287
-def: 1346
Greataxe:
-none: 882
-aggro: 882
-conc: 723
-light: 723
-def: 882
Urazial: lvl 81, 65.65 robes proofed, Trans Tailor, Mythical Resilience.
***Wound Tests***
Greataxe:
-Rregular: 1123
-Concentrated: 1138
-Defensive: 1123
Waraxe:
-regular: 705
-Concentrated: 720
-Defensive: 705
***Damage tests***
Waraxe:
-none: 1346
-aggro: 1346
-conc: 1287
-light: 1287
-def: 1346
Greataxe:
-none: 882
-aggro: 882
-conc: 723
-light: 723
-def: 882
-Concentrated adds a +15 wounding, regardless of precision stat.
-Agressive: Adds NO damage or extra wounding.
-Defensive: Deals same amount of damage as no specified combatstyle, but reduces wounds by 15.
This is just basic testing, once I hit the point where I discovered that Aggressive was apparently not adding ANY extra damage, I became slightly hacked off and decided to blow off steam by smashing some skulls in
Plus, that Karmic Blessing of War has only seen about 4 hours of work so far, and there's only 10 hours left.
Estarra2008-05-01 21:23:05
QUOTE(geb @ Apr 30 2008, 02:05 PM) 507783
1. I think magic should be changed to a general resistance skill that covers magic, electric, fire, and cold resists. Once the person transcends this skill-set, the person would have 15% reduction in damage to all of those damage types. This change would be fair for two reasons. One is that a person can acquire a skill to reduce the effect elemental runes have on their person (damage wise). The second effect is that it would require that person to spend credits to transcend the skill-set for its greatest effect; therefore the person has to pay a price in credits to reduce the damage that a person paid a price in credits to increase. With the addition of proofs, a person transcendent in the new skill can have a straight resistance of 25-35% against the elemental aspect of a warriors attack. That is equal to having a 70 on robes versus cutting/blunt, but this is versus elemental attacks. Keep in mind that Desitrus has pointed out that he has no stat runes on his waraxe, giving more credence to my claim that elemental runes are the main culprit in boosting damage.
As we analyze this, we note that currently fire/frost potion is 15% and a proofing is 10%, yielding 25% elemental resistance for everyone on cold/fire damage and 10% electric. I'm unsure why more resistances are needed in the manner above described for these damage types.
Jitwix2008-05-01 21:46:43
QUOTE(Estarra @ May 1 2008, 11:23 PM) 508060
fire/frost potion is 15%
Fire and frost actually give damage resist? And here I thought they only prevented shivering/on fire. Why does no one tell me these things!?!?
Estarra2008-05-01 21:51:14
QUOTE(Jitwix @ May 1 2008, 02:46 PM) 508068
Fire and frost actually give damage resist? And here I thought they only prevented shivering/on fire. Why does no one tell me these things!?!?
It's rather explicit in the alchemy AB files.... maybe its an alchemist conspiracy to keep the knowledge to themselves!
Shamarah2008-05-01 21:56:47
Well, basically every elemental warrior uses lightning runes, so fire/frost potion are a fairly moot point. And you can only get 10% resist against electric without class skills (and not many classes have electric resist).
Jitwix2008-05-02 07:28:28
QUOTE(Estarra @ May 1 2008, 11:51 PM) 508070
It's rather explicit in the alchemy AB files.... maybe its an alchemist conspiracy to keep the knowledge to themselves!
Sneaky alchemists.
Bashara2008-05-02 11:02:28
Halfway tested the fire/frost potion thing a little earlier. I'm currently a Taurian, no weakness or resistance to fire naturally. I have Gifted Magic, Resistance from Athletics which gives 15% magic resist, a magic proofed cloak, a fire proofed coat, and then the frost potion. Also, a lvl 1 racial weakness to magic.
-Basics: Obesfessor dealt ~800 damage with fire attack.
-With coat: Fire damage dealt ranged from 700-750.
-With Frost Potion: 600 fire dmg, give or take 20 points.
There's no need to resip frost or fire to rebuff, even if you start to shiver/get lit on fire. You can have both up at the same time.
So basically: Coat (10) + Potion (15) = 25% straight up resistance for everyone. I'm not sure if magic proofings or the Magic skill factors into the equation at all. Estarra?
Also, I apparently overlooked an important Athletics skill: Fitness, 15 DMP against heat based attacks for Athletics users. So my total resistance was actually Coat (10) + Frost (15) + Fitness (15) = 40%
Again, I don't know if my Magic Skill, cloak, and Resistance factored into this or not. I was highly neurotic at the time and didn't feel like trying to input any more extra commands than I was having to.
*Edit*
Hope I did this right
-Basics: Obesfessor dealt ~800 damage with fire attack.
-With coat: Fire damage dealt ranged from 700-750.
-With Frost Potion: 600 fire dmg, give or take 20 points.
There's no need to resip frost or fire to rebuff, even if you start to shiver/get lit on fire. You can have both up at the same time.
So basically: Coat (10) + Potion (15) = 25% straight up resistance for everyone. I'm not sure if magic proofings or the Magic skill factors into the equation at all. Estarra?
Also, I apparently overlooked an important Athletics skill: Fitness, 15 DMP against heat based attacks for Athletics users. So my total resistance was actually Coat (10) + Frost (15) + Fitness (15) = 40%
Again, I don't know if my Magic Skill, cloak, and Resistance factored into this or not. I was highly neurotic at the time and didn't feel like trying to input any more extra commands than I was having to.
*Edit*
Hope I did this right
Geb2008-05-02 12:39:26
QUOTE(Estarra @ May 1 2008, 10:23 PM) 508060
As we analyze this, we note that currently fire/frost potion is 15% and a proofing is 10%, yielding 25% elemental resistance for everyone on cold/fire damage and 10% electric. I'm unsure why more resistances are needed in the manner above described for these damage types.
Yes, that is true and I alluded to that when I pointed out stacking resistances. Still, Shamarah has pointed about the fact that electric resists are hard to get and we also have to remember that frost and fire resists from the potions can be stripped during combat. While magic, physical, and poison resists are all possible by a non-removable defense given by general skill-sets, the other elemental resists are either harder to acquire in any significant quantity (outside of choosing a certain race) or can be stripped by various means (of which some are passive in effect). It would be just better to remove the resistance effect from the potions and then create the new skill-set, which will allow people to acquire a constant level of protection just like resilience and magic affords people now.
Shamarah2008-05-02 20:34:18
QUOTE(geb @ May 2 2008, 08:39 AM) 508281
Yes, that is true and I alluded to that when I pointed out stacking resistances. Still, Shamarah has pointed about the fact that electric resists are hard to get and we also have to remember that frost and fire resists from the potions can be stripped during combat. While magic, physical, and poison resists are all possible by a non-removable defense given by general skill-sets, the other elemental resists are either harder to acquire in any significant quantity (outside of choosing a certain race) or can be stripped by various means (of which some are passive in effect). It would be just better to remove the resistance effect from the potions and then create the new skill-set, which will allow people to acquire a constant level of protection just like resilience and magic affords people now.
Just make resilience or magic do it. The last thing we need is ANOTHER skillset.
(although I'm not sure why you're worrying about fire/frost being stripped anyway, the only way a warrior would really do that is through inquisition and if you get inquisitioned you have bigger problems)
EDIT: Actually, I think removing the resists given by fire/frost and putting them into a skillset is a bad idea, it's already a big enough credit investment to be able to fight in Lusternia. What if a galvanic potion was made that gave the same electric resist as the other two? And maybe if a couple races got electric resistances?
Jitwix2008-05-03 11:24:28
QUOTE(Shamarah @ May 2 2008, 10:34 PM) 508370
What if a galvanic potion was made that gave the same electric resist as the other two?
Make it part of quicksilver? Qs is used for electric proofing.
Shamarah2008-05-03 11:25:08
Quicksilver is too easily stripped by knights with raze though.
Malarious2008-05-03 11:39:11
QUOTE(Shamarah @ May 3 2008, 07:25 AM) 508484
Quicksilver is too easily stripped by knights with raze though.
Since quicksilver doesnt effect stancing and wounds as it was originally designed to, we could always have knights not strip it couldnt we?
Ignoring that we tried once, we will just need a new reason.
Shiri2008-05-03 12:19:47
QUOTE(Malarious @ May 3 2008, 12:39 PM) 508488
Since quicksilver doesnt effect stancing and wounds as it was originally designed to, we could always have knights not strip it couldnt we?
Ignoring that we tried once, we will just need a new reason.
Ignoring that we tried once, we will just need a new reason.
I think it does affect knight damage, just to a small degree. Someone may want to mythbusters that though, but last time (a few months ago) someone checked it out it still mattered.
Malarious2008-05-03 12:46:12
I remember its supposed to have an effect but it didnt seem to, was like a minor boost to stance or parry or something or a tiny change to wounds I think.
EDIT: Mythbusters topic up.
EDIT: Mythbusters topic up.