I think it used to but that was fixed during one of the Envoy reports recently. I think....maybe that was TK barrier.

Might want to change the impact Enlarging and Diminishing has on hunger, as it's only four/five of them to bring someone from completely full to ravenous.

I agree. Changed my size four times to see the effects, and nearly starved to death! FYI, Morgyre, that's not a slight amount of hunger. Heh.

I don't think we need to nerf the amount of health given/taken for changing sizes, as it seems pretty minor now. What's the most anyone's able to get out of it, anyway?

The blocking change makes RP sense, but it is bad for balance.

I don't feel that the STR/DEX changes affect warriors negatively at all. I agree with Celina that it's a good thing to make us just a little more flexible now. Rika, keep in mind that these modifiers are based on how far you change from your racial norm. If your racial norm is too far from what you want, then I'd say you're just the wrong race and should perhaps remedy that instead.

Going from size 15 to 18, I gained +30 hp. Going from 15 to 12 I lost 30 hp. Not a very big difference at all hp-wise.

Also, at size 18 with Flex and Geburah, I have 18 strength, same as what I have at 15, and at 12 it's 17. At size 15 I have normal 12 dex, at 18 it's 11, and at 12 it's 13.

Haven't had time to test blocking yet. I'm competing with what seems to be three other people to complete Tosha, as well as scarf down lunch before it's time to go to work

Str and Dex adjusting might end up better with Dex and Con adjusting.

Larger you get less dex, more str.

Smaller you get more dex, less con.

Warriors won't want to go too small for a dex boost and serious health drop. And monks will have to weigh the advantages of max dex and crappy health. For now, low str/max dex isn't as big of a thing to consider as it would be low con/max dex.

Interesting idea...

No one will ever go small.

Might be interesting, but yeah no one would ever want to go smaller than their racial norm. Constitution is a LOT more valuable than dexterity.

Do you mean no monk will ever go small?

As a dwarf, I would get someone to diminish me and lose 1con to gain a dex to get a better chance at afflicting with my spec wounds.

As it stands right now, what would a monk be able to get as a max dex? 24? 25 as a demi? with a reduction in strength that won't mean much to them? As a non demi what 22? 23?

Between yellow, TF's, herofetes and I think there is something else (maybe not) that boost con... I am sure you will still end up with high dex monks with decent con. Right now you are going to end up with high dex monks with high HP and lower strength which doesn't effect a monk as much.

If people chose not to go smaller than their racial norm, that would be up to them. But I think you will still see people going smaller and supplementing their con with tosha or catacomb blessings, karma blessings, herofetes and TFs

Right now I think the only ones nervous of this would be a monk. But with some thought I am sure they too could pick a few races where even then they could end up with good a dex/con combination (I can think of couple races that would do well off the top of my head). But it would stop the (soon to be) new norm of 20+ dex monks from starting to pop up all over.

I thought diminish/enlarge only changes you by 2 sizes. It changes it by 3?

I don't remember, mine decayed so long ago. I thought it was by 3 cuz Telrath (who casted it on me alot) would always put me down to 9 and I always thought I was a size 12 to start then. (being human and its 12 across the board for them before 50)

It should change by 3 if it doesnt though, since you can only diminsh 1 time right? and why would you want to diminish by 2 and not gain a benifit from it?

It changes size 3 points at a time to a maximum of 3 points away from the norm. Other size changes (such as that from Fortuna) is calculated afterwards.

Anyway, while monk and maybe warrior might want to Diminish themselves if the circumstances are right, any other class will likely not. Lower con means lower survivability, and most classes can't use dexterity as much as they can use constitution. Those who can Enlarge and Diminish are guardians. And, at least I as a cosmic guardian, would never want to trade one point of con for one point of dexterity, unless I somehow managed to reach the roof of con enhancing, and then I might want to use it. Might. So Diminish becomes a lot worse.

Another problem I see is that with these changes, everyone would want to be bigger for PvE. Dexterity isn't terribly useful for PvE, but lower constitution means that you sip for less health and can't tank as well as you could.

Don't get me wrong, the idea is neat. I just feel that it'll make diminish a lot less worth.

Also, with these changes can we make Fortuna not increase size? Since if Fortuna increases size, it makes it impossible for the Paladin/Ur'Guard/Nihilist/Celestine to get the point swap from lower size while Fortuna blesses size.

Wouldn't that make diminish a great spell for you to cast on people who are opposing you?

Hmm, yeah it would. Maybe even too great. It's already causing insane amounts of hunger that you really can't avoid. It's a pretty easily gained ability after all, so it shouldn't be a powerful weapon. At most a useful defense with Pros and Cons.

Diminish is also an enchant, we dont need everyone at -1 con because someone pulled diminish.

And as Kira said, who trades +1 dex for -1 con? Knights and maybe monks, thats about it (monks would be pushing it).

Yeah. I wouldn't mind getting many orders for Diminish, but I still think it'll be too powerful.

Ah but riddle me this....

Who do you think is trading str for dex right now?

Are there 100 cosmics running around trying to beef up their dex? Dex already has been proven to bear no significance in any class but monks and warriors. (Yes it does not effect acrobatics dodge as been pre proven in other threads/tests)

So.... who is using it now?

Answer:

Illithoid Monks.

17 dex to start and enough str to burn, decent size so they can burn alot of size too.

You will have them up to 19-20 in a heartbeat. Higher with acrobatics skills .... lets say 23, demi... 25.

If con is not suitable, it sure as hell shouldn't be strength, in your quest to say no to a suggestion that would never effect your class (since you do not use dex). You are failing to see how powerful of break we are giving monks, illithoid monks in particular without anything to lose for it.

Oh, I'm seeing that it can be a boon to monks. But that's only one archetype. Swapping str with con will affect ALL classes, since everyone can get a wand enchanted with Diminish and POINT DIMINISH ILDAUDID. Essentially, that'll make Diminish a free Binah with added hunger effect. It'll stack with Binah too, so with a little luck, you can add up a negative astrology Skull sphere (That's con right?) Binah and Diminish for a total of -7 to constitution. That is a lot of health.

Basically, what I'm saying is that while Diminish and Enlarge has been made into a great buff for monks and warriors (Ironic since it is a cosmic guardian skill), your suggestion will make it an even greater weapon. It's already bad enough now that it gives everyone access to hunger attacks, and a pretty strong one too.

Perhaps we can have more tradeoffs with size?

+1str , +1 int, -1 dex, -1 cha for large (Larger brain, larger muscles, more bulk, less cuteness)
-1str , -1 int, +1 dex, +1 cha for small (smaller brain, smaller muscles, more deftness, more cuteness)

Diminish/Enlarge can only be used 1 time. Its not stackable if I remember right.

Problem is now that monks are trying to be reworked into something of a better defined structure system. With that in mind, we have basically unknowingly created the "faeling" monk again. (aka monks all becoming one of a couple races, then boosting them to outrageous dex heights).

I understand the whole diminish/enlarge issue. But as it is right now its just as bad of a problem. Any org with any sense would equip all novices with a diminish and an enlarge enchant. Then have them attack people with diminish, then with enlarge to have them passing out in mass numbers.

The way to solve it (and make it so it is still ok to change it from strength to con), especially with them able to be enchants... is to simply make it so diminish/enlarge are self only spells. Then possibly make diminish and enlarge able to be stacked upon yourself to change sizes more than 3 (that may not be wise though). With it as a selfcast enchant then you will nullify the problem of insta hungering people with a group of novices holding enchants.

aka:

Novice Scroll 1:
All novices make sure you have enchants of diminsh/enlarge
When performing a zerg all novice pick 1 target from the group who is attacking.
Then on your CT call out who you will have targetted
#alias {zergon} {#if (@zergon=0) {zergon=1;#sa ZERGING IS ON} {zergon=0;#sa ZERGING IS OFF}}
#trigger {~((*)~) says, "Diminish now!"} {#if (zergon=1) {point @diminish.enchant @target}}
#trigger {~((*)~) says, "Enlarge now!"} {#if (zergon=0) {point @enlarge.enchant @target}}

These simple steps can and probably are already being used to insta starve people rather quickly.

edit - and yeah cosmics have no reasons to diminish now, so it really shouldn't even bother them to think about losing con, why would they even consider it? only monks have a reason to diminish at this time and possibly a couple warriors.





This wouldn't address monks at all though Dag, it would still leave super high dex stats with no loss for a monk period. It needs to be a give and take.... you want dex you have to give up something else you want. And choose what is the bigger priority at the time. Also looking at that... If people think warriors are scary now, wait until a size 25 mugwump warrior hits you with surge up. That would knock mugwumps into an incredible warrior class to surge with for insane health.