This is something that I talked about a few times in other threads, yet I think it deserves its own thread and should be looked into.


I think Orders, should not fall prey to the "tuning" of statues or totems.

Orders should be on a different level. They should be able to be hit only by other order's shrines, and sanctified areas, if they are "on"

The reason behind this is simply that while orders are a fun part of the game. They are too condensed and order members tend to have to remain in the org the order is primarily based.

By removing these restrictions and lifting the tuning abilites..... It will allow for alot more RP to orders, along with the ability to do what any "true" order would do in RL. They would expand. All cults/orders/gangs/etc end up expanding.

By releasing the reins that bind the orders now..... Expansion could become a nice change to Lusternia. We could finally listen to what our "Gods" want us to do.... We could then try to pass on their teachings in other orgs and possibly end up with followers all over the basin.

Terentia followers could then speak to Glomdoring members in secret meetings, and convince some to join their order. They can also speak to some Magnagorans and have them involved in Terentia's order.

Now think of the larger role Gods will play if they have followers all over.... True Followers not people who say they are in orders but truly aren't.... They could in a sense try to secure places of Power in enemy cities. Working for the final goals Terentia wishes..... Same could be said about Fain followers in Seren, slowly making the elves of Seren into puppets of Fain

The true RP possibilities are endless. Right now the tuning of totems and statues stops this RP.. And I think it is time to make the change...

I will try to turn this into a poll if possible.... But if I can't figure it out. Please post your thoughts on this.

-edit- yay I figured out how to make a poll.

I can't help but feel responsible for this.

I'm not sure how this will help in the grand scheme of things. I mean, sure, in an org without an active Divine it'll be easier to get away with it... but if you have an active Divine, you think that they'll stop giving warning about those who follow enemy Divine simply because this is changed? I really don't see that happening.

Tsk, tsk, wrong kind of poll. Just to spite you, I'll vote yes -and- no.

More important issue: Make Ascendants have cults without needing an order,

I agree with Ildy wholeheartedly, though I think that clans should also be untuneable. Anyone remember the debacle with the Walkers?

OOC: I agree.
IC: No, it makes sense in an RP way, to be honest

It makes sense in an IC way that an Ascendant, a being that transcends even demigods should not need a god to establish their own "order" (read cult), instead they use their own personal essence to do it.

It can go both ways.

The problem is that divine have the power to follow you around invis, or listen in on your tells, or snoop into your inventory, etc. Basically unless you are beyond paranoid and limit all of your interaction to things like letters (assuming they could not be read in your inv before you send it) or message or things like that, there is no way you could know for sure that the enemy divine did not find you out.

Divine would have to have an ability where they could veil you from another divine long enough for you to go to their temple or send them tells. Even in that case you would have to be very careful about your movements and actions.

This is assuming that the ability to just check your honors and see which order you are in is removed.

Even after all of that there will still be some admins who play some divine who will always have access to the "truth". It would be up to them to ensure they never revealed it in game. Of course if they found out about it another way (say from a spy of their own) and said something I am sure the boards would be full of people claiming they abused their powers.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while in theory it is great, the way the game is set up it becomes rather infeasible. Just limited statues is not enough.

I think divine consulates are a much larger hinderance to the "expansion" of an order than them being able to be targeted by statues and totems.

I think if someone is part of a foreign order or undesireable clan in your org, and is spying on you, they should be found out via RP and not some statue. But that's probably too crazy for some people

That, "some statue" IS rp.

Imagine a war against some alien race, and we developed cameras to detect the aliens that looked like humans. Would we require more evidence than that camera to send them to the penal colony on mars? I guess maybe the ACLU would not allow them to be kicked out if they were otherwise important paying members to the ACLU, but then in Lusternia, the same thing tends to happen. (i.e. Kaervas if Viravain didn't have an iron fist in those times)


However, remember that Celest would own Serenwilde via Hajamin and Isune and Magangora would own Glomdoring via Fain if divine consulates were not in place, and those orders would have expanded more. Totems and statues didn't really affect those relationships, but the divine consulates did.

Thanks Soji, yes and no....

Look, I am not good at explaining things like Soji, Xenny or anyone else, but basically.

Divine would have to limit their snooping. Basically rein themselves in to let things progress in a natural way.

Lets look at the OOC meaning of that for a moment:

Guy A decides he wants to be a Shikan (the religion with the turbans that everyone mistakes in India), but he moves to France and wants to preach the Shikan religion to others in his town. The townsfolk are all Christians. So Guy A decides to look Christian and act Christian but secretly spread his religion in the town.

Now would Jesus sneak around and find some French Christian leader and say.... "Hey this guy follows the Shikan path, murder him." ??

No, and the reason why would be that Gods are superior and do not meddle in mortal affairs. They watch it unfold and if anything hope their followers will succeed.

Even if we were using the Roman/Greek god format, If a follower of Hera somehow entered a city that worshipped Zeus, they would even be allowed to open a Shrine to Hera in the Zeus controlled city..... Why?? Because Zeus never mettled in petty shite like that.

Ok, now IC:
Lets use Lisaera and Fain for examples:

A follower of Lisaera moves to Magnagora, for reasons of their own. Yet they still believe in the teachings of Lisaera and wish to influence others to follow her beliefs. Now when they enter the city.... in a perfect Lusternia, the statues would not bother them. Why?? Because Fain doesn't care about what type of people are in Magnagora, he knows he has the majority of influence of Magnagorans (along with Morg).

Fain should not be snooping this person every second of the day. And if Fain did and found out she followed the teachings of Lisaera, that is for him to know, and not his people. Period.... Gods will need to learn to keep things to themselves.

Now the Lisaera follower is flourishing in Magnagora as a great Warrior. She defends her new city against attacks from any side. Yet she will try to hold true to her beliefs. So there may be times she does not involve herself in certain conflicts. She can play the role of a spy for the Lisaera order too if she wishes to. In doing so she can use OT or OTO to speak to fellow members of her order. It is now up to her to decide the choices she wishes to make. She could inform them of certain attacks, or she could inform them of how she has converted other citizens of Magnagora into Lisaera's order.

If she chose to induct some Magnagoran citizens into Lisaera's order. That would be benificial to the order, (bringing in more essence, having more believers, etc, etc) And Lisaera's influence throughout the basin has now just spread outside her main org of influence, into a new org, giving her a greater feeling of accomplishment and allowing her influence to spread...

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Now, at this point in time. This is impossible due to primarily statues and totems. And also by meddling gods who take meddling too far.

For instance, when I joined Serenwilde, I was speaking with Nejii about joining and I said flat out to him. Let me know when it is time to get inducted so I could quit my order. Well we had a miscommunication. But Lisaera snooped me and said I was still in Morgfyre's order and that she wanted my orobouros (something no one but another god could have seen because of my artie cloak). I asked a friend of mine who was already a commune member how in the hell did they know I was in: Morgfyres order, since I could have been in any enemied order, and how they knew about my ouroboros. I got a message back with "Lis**** siad it to us" A god who just took it on their own to give information that really shouldnt have been given to the mortals (IMO). Yet I dealt with it. The commune at first thought I was being sneaky, but the truth was I had that miscommunication with Nejii and I didn't quit my org before I tess'd to where they needed me to tess.... (somewhere a bunch of totems hit me).

This example is a prime example of two things. One: Using totems to detect order members, and Two: A god meddling too far into things.

Gods have the ability to know anything they wanna know.... They can sit there and watch you mudsecks, and they have. I have heard stories from gods that have seen some crazy things.... The key point to this, they told me in an OOC manner and did not pull it IG for any reason). So I think there are some things gods should keep to themselves, just to watch things play out.

Anyways I am rambling.... and yet I still have more to say;

The Ascendant issue is also a thing that should be taken into account here too.

What Shuyin said is right, he shouldn't need a god to start a cult. And even if he MUST have a god to start a cult. He should have the choice of any god he wishes. He should be able to form a cult based on his beliefs not a specific god's. What if Shuyin truly followed Roark. He should be allowed to choose Roark as the god he follows to form the cult. But all in all he shouldn't have to have a specific god at all, yet if that doesn't change he should have the choice of gods he wishes to follow.

Ok, paraphrasing:

• Orders should not be totem/statue tuneable, period. There is no real reason why they should be in the first place. You can tune totems and statues to cities/communes already. And right now all true Order members (not order loyalists who cannot use commands like OT or OTO) are already part of the city/commune that God resides in. So basically you are double defending with the totems..... It should be fine to make them not tuneable to orders, since they can be covered by tuning to cities/communes
  
  
  
• Gods, while they can see anything and everything. Should have the self control to let things happen as any true god (if you believe in god/yaweh/allah/etc/etc) would do. And let things unfold as they should. Only in major things should they use these powers to communicate to their order members (or on CT, etc). But to sit there and say "Ooh Oooh Mister Kotter Mister Kotter, Billy is a member of Terentia's order, take away his special object and tell the commune because I can see things like this and I just wanna tell you all.") That is a lack of self control. Gods need to learn self control on some things. Or have certain things removed in what they can see, like who is in whose order (if they cannot control themselves)
  
  
  
• Ascendants should either be allowed to choose any god they wish to form a cult, or should be allowed to form a cult without having to have a god to make the cult.

That some statue can be tuned to orginizations which should solve 98% of the xenophobic feelings about it. Since they are tuneable to orgs, you can simply tune shrines to orders. Now you will have a way to defend your Gods if your Gods are in danger, and you still have a way to tune and defend your orgs from other orgs.

Just to respond to the OOC part of this-- the Christian example doesn't work when compared to Lusternia, as the Deities are far more obvious in this game. The Pantheon, however, had a great history of meddling with one another's followers as I remember it.

I don't know what mythology you read if you don't think Zeus was petty, but it sure can't have been the Greek kind.

The Pantheon meddled in a different way, they didn't say every time some follower of another god entered a city they controlled to demand they stop following the other god. So you are correct in the meddling but they never meddled in such a simplistic insignificant way. They meddled when things were more important.

I think the Pantheon gods had more well for lack of a better word, "self-esteem". They would not feel so insecure as to have to make the city/commune they lived in, not have followers of other gods in it.

So what about all of Zeus' girlfriends who Hera just smacked down because she didn't like Zeus cheating on her?

Ok look I am not the master of mythology.... so forgive me if I don't reference correctly. I also said that it is hard for me to put things into words as well as others. I am one who is more action related not word related.

But although you say Zeus was petty, even going on that information. There were temples of Zeus and temples of other gods located in the same cities. They had enough self control and self esteem to allow this.

Having shrines to Terentia and Fain in the same city/commune is not even what I am asking for. That would be too much, yet asking that statues and totems don't hit order members shouldnt be so adamantly refuted.

Any order "wars" should be handled within the orders, meaning that order shrines should be the only thing that enemies other orders. So orgs are all secure if there was an order war going on. They have shrines and sanctified rooms all over. And it will hit order enemies. So since they have that, why do we need statues/totems to hit order enemies too? Order enemies are not always org enemies.

I was enemied to Charune a while ago during an order war, But I was never enemied to Serenwilde because of it. So why would I expect Serenwilde totems to hit me if I was not an enemy to them?

There's a difference between the mythology, and the more mundane "reality". In Lusternia, we're living the mythology, whereas in reality... it was more natural events that people explained by calling upon the Gods.